Then you agree with my point, Quiver?

It's only those willing to bail who predict perpetual piss poor govt as though they had crystal balls. Karzai's Govt. is a flop, it's not guaranteed the next or subsequent Govts. will be. If Obama has committed you to 5 years that's two more election cycles.

Without us not only will there be a worse Govt but one likely to be a risk to us.

I'm simply looking at the history of Afghanistan. It seems very few people do that.

The main problem is in Pakistan. Afghanistan doesn't mean much. We waste our time with insane forays into countries that pose no threat while creating the very situation that leads to more terror.

When you are digging yourself into a hole, the first thing you have to do is to stop digging if you want to increase your chances of not burying yourself.

There are many people who think digging holes is a good thing. I'm not one of them.

No, it's not just those here who think we should pull out that feel that way, it's also the women in Afghanistan who feel that way and think we should pull out.

You're predicting success as though you had a crystal ball.

Yes, I agree with your point.

America, and the rest of the world, have no business or right to criticize one country's stand on womens' rights. Hypocrisy at its finest for the US to do it. We are not better or good at it just by pointing out others' faults. I continually stay amazed at the sad, devious, and poor record of ensuring womens' rights here -- in the "civilized" world. Let's take a calculation. 1. Has there ever been a female president of our country? One? Wrong.
2. How many female senators do we have? 51%? Nope, sorry. 3. Who was the last female Pope?

I think we do have a right to criticise when it's our troops who are giving the Afghan government the security it needs in order to operate. jmo. Ultimately, I don't believe in nation building - each sovereign nation has to get where it wants to go on its own and in its own time.

I lived for over 5 years under Sharia law and the rule is Sharia cannot be subordinate to man's law but in practise man's law can coexist with Sharia. This legislation has nothing to do with Sharia but with mysogeny. There is little in Sharia about the coital affairs of spouses and it is mostly about the hygene of it.The Taleban shunned music but there is music throughout the arab & muslim world, the Taleban shunned television yet there must be at least 40 arabic satellite channels. `It's not Sharia that's the problem, it's the interpretation. In this case a particularily mysogenistic man wrote some particularily oppressive laws as Shia family law that bears little resemblence to Sharia and Karzai leaped on it to get Shia support in the forthcoming elections.

Women are revered in islam, not in the way we see it but in the home (good islamic homes) they are seen as queens and it is women who perpetuate islam as they train their very young in islamic ways as they do for all the childrens needs. It is only later when the children can behave in mosques that men become involved .

Turkey is a democracy that lives comfortably with mans laws & Sharia (yes there are problems with Kurd regions).

I think we do have a right to criticise when it's our troops who are giving the Afghan government the security it needs in order to operate. jmo. Ultimately, I don't believe in nation building - each sovereign nation has to get where it wants to go on its own and in its own time.

A Quiver, unfortunately I have to disagree with your post -- something I seldom do, for at a minimum I always respect your writing and thought process.

Having our troops somewhere to fight a cause does not give us the right to criticize those in that country or their customs. We went there to get Bin Laden and al Queda, and now seven years later, we are still slugging it out with the Taliban with a very weak central government propped up by our troops. The biggest hypocrisy of all is that in our efforts to do whatever the hell it is that we are doing, we are in league with the worst element in the entire world, and that is the tribal chiefs and druglords who produce 80% of the world's opium and heroin.

To keep up the opium supply while just maintaining the status quo politically is repulsive. We, nor anyone before us has done, will create a long term government or ally in Afghanistan. Yet, there we are, criticizing their religious customs and laws while we enable the world to have heroin. And worse still, we, nor anyone in the west, should have the audacity, the unmitigated gall to speak to womens' rights when we have such a dismal record of it at home.

Why no outrage at the Pope and Catholic church? And all of the other patriarchical religions...especially here at home?

I think I will accept the thoughts of the women who live in Afghanistan over a person who lived under sharia law for 5 years, especially if that person is a man. It doesn't matter what sharia law SHOULD be or how it SHOULD be interpreted. It matters what is happening to the women. Sounds to me like someone is saying oh yes if the women stay at home and service their men, don't think for themselves and certainly don't speak out, they are treated wonderfully. They are property, not humans. The Taliban and Karzai and it seems the rest of the factions in Afghanistan all appear to agree on that. If that's revering women then forget it. Yes, this one man (and the men in his parliament) jumped on these laws. He sees nothing wrong with them. In Pakistan, The Taliban were given the right to sharia law by the idiots and they flogged a teenage girl in public. The Taliban are evil, that's true, but so is the man and men we support in Afghanistan. Even more evil in my mind are the ones in Pakistan who have done so much to kiss ass with these people and allow such atrocities. Yet we depend on them for help? I will also say anyone who lets their child be flogged in public or anywhere else is equally evil. If your child is not worth fighting for then you are not worth fighting for.

We are not helping the people in Afghanistan who are worthy of our help. They want us out. We need to help them, support them. They are willing to fight for themselves, but can't when we are there supporting the people who are against them.

NC everyone in the world has the right and responsibility to speak out against human rights violations whether they are in this country or elsewhere. I do agree with most of your post last post though. The thing I disagree with is comparing a religion that allows and even mandates public flogging of girls, public stoning to death of women and men raping their wives to a religion that won't let women be priests or a country that has not yet elected a woman for president is absurd. The thing I do agree with is that we are supporting the very people who do the evil, so at best we are hypocrites for that. To allow our kids to be killed and maimed for that makes us at best sadistic hypocrites.

Quiver, sooz, and Thack, for what it's worth, I agree with your posts.

Just like Sarah Palin and her family values......people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

We here in the civilized world are much more sophisticated in subjugating our wimmenfolk.

I think the point is we protest and try to stop any human rights violations wherever they are. We don't close our eyes to human rights violations elsewhere just because we have our own to deal with here. As far as this thread is concerned, we don't stop human rights violations in Afghanistan by dying for the people who commit them and by staying against the wishes of the victims.

As soon as I get through beating my wife, I am going to my neighbor's house and tell that dumb SOB he shouldn't beat his wife....or else.

How's that?

Is that condoned here? Is it legal here? Does our President say it's ok?

I find a huge difference between violence and non violence. I find a huge difference between a government that condones and legitimizes violence and one that doesn't.

The proper analogy would be as soon as I get done disagreeing with my wife on women's rights I will go next door and tell that dumb sob he shouldn't beat his wife....or else.

I don't consider it a human right for a woman to be pope. I don't consider it a human right for a woman to be president of the United States. Human rights violations are us torturing people and holding people for 6 + years with no determination of guilt or innocence. Human rights violations are the the use of tasers against blacks more than others, the arrest of blacks more than others. Human rights are denying someone life and liberty.

Why the f*ck do you make shit up to argue over?. Either you don't answer questions at all or you invent others views to respond to! Where did I remotely say anything like what you sugggest I said? Islam is for women too, I seek a Afghanistan where women too are educated, can vote, can get elected and can legislate to interprete Sharia. Desist with the "sounds like" inventive interpretations of my views, if I needed help with my posting you are the last arsehole I'd come to.

The women want us out of Afghanistan and they want us to stop supporting the people who fight them. They know the fight must be done by them. You are not willing to support the women of Afghanistan and their wishes.

NC: Thank you for your compliment, which is reciprocated. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle here. I do think we should speak out against human rights abuses, wherever they are (including in the West). I am outraged at many of the actions and words of the Catholic Church. Bottom line, though, is that I do not believe that anyone has the right to impose their morality on anyone else. So that would include not only not imposing our idea of democracy on Afghanistan, but also not supporting Afghan men to impose their will on Afghan women. Concerted criticism is a powerful tool, which can have considerable impact.

If I have problems interpreting someone's post I ask questions of the poster. Some like you avoid the hard ones, I can do nothing about that except point out your hypocracy. I don't invent positions and lay them on the poster as you have done.

I said what I said and not what you decide "sounds like" what I am saying!

What you are doing is attaching your westernised values to women's rights in islam for Afghanis.

The women in Afghanistan do not want us there. They feel we are making it harder for them to fight for themselves. You want us to stay. You are imposing your views on them with guns.

You said what you said and I interpreted what you said. Same as you do. Same as we all do.

I don't avoid the hard questions. I just don't discuss Israel with you. That's my right.

Interesting. It appears that Turkey is making some effort to change a few things just so EU will accept them. They may be somewhat better than other Muslim countries, but that's not saying a lot.

Amnesty International estimates that at least one third of the "queens" in Turkey have been victims of domestic violence including, hitting, rape, being killed or forced to kill themselves. That does not include the honor killings.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3681494.stm

Turkey's entry to the EU depends on those Human Rights improving (and the settlement of claims on Cyprus)

I think you'll find a similar precentage of women victimised by crime in the US. One in five subject to domestic abuse.