Yep, you, Thack, and I have nothing to discuss anymore. You totally support the Pals, poor displaced people. I totally support Israel. It's interesting though that you feel the other countries that displaced Pals and even brutally slaughtered them owe the Pals nothing. In fact, you say that's not relevant. So, your concern is not for the displaced Pals, it's only for those displaced by Israel. I'd love to know how many of the Pals now in Gaza ever had homes in what is now Israel. Shouldn't the effort be to return the Pals to their homes? You just want to force them on Israel.

There were Israeli terrorists. They did bomb the Hotel. They called and warned but the place wasn't evacuated. But, yes they bombed it and killed people. A terrorist act, an unacceptable act. That is not where Israel came from though. Israel had been formed by Jews who had been buying the land around there, by the British mandate, by the displaced Jews immigrating into the land given them. All you ,Thack, see, is the terrorists.

The illegal settlements are wrong and Israel has had to fight it's own people to get them to stop.

Thack, your continued use of the "final solution" in reference to what I say is innacurate, dishonest, offensive and ridiculous. I think maybe you need to go study up on Hitler's final solution before you use the term so lightly.

Where did I say the Pals need to forget and forgive? Who's bringing them death and destruction? Hamas is, Jordan did, Egypt did. They should be angry.

What you say about the Pals and their rights I say about Israel and hers. You see Israel only as stolen land, so stop the pretense of wanting her to survive. Every post you make blames Israel for everything and most actions you support would lead to her destruction.

Most of your post seems to be you once again saying Israel should accept the attacks and do nothing but try playing kissy with the world. The world opinion has been against and unfortunately will remain against Israel because what they see, those who are not just blatantly jew-haters, is stolen land. Most don't give a damn about the Palestinians. Do you think the Arab countries care about Pals? They slaughtered them and exiled them. In the UN, one Jewish State against how many Arab States? How many Muslim countries? The League of Nations taking the territory, the British mandate, etc came about following the WWI. Did the Pals control the land before that? Did the Pals ever control that land? How far back do we want to go? What was to be done with the Jews no one wanted? Seems to me their original homeland was a good place to choose. Israel was not formed from terrorism. It was formed by Jews wanting a homeland, their own, back. They took that by legal means, some terrorism when it appeared the British were about to throw them to the wolves, and by being given it. Yes, they are there and will stay there. The Pals may have better luck trying to get their land back from Jordan. That's where most of them came from. You do realize that right? You act like all the Pals in Gaza came from the land Israel has. They didn't. The Pals were spread all over and were kicked out of every place. Many Arabs live peacefully in Israel. Why? Because they don't support Hamas and attacks against Israel. Could the Pals be trusted to do the same? No way. They prefer to let their babies be martyrs for Hamas.

I don't see the problem from a neutral position? And YOU do? Minimal damage done to Israel? Please do tell how many Israelis have to die and how much damage has to be done before you accept Israel defending herself? The idea should be to prevent those, so I wouldn't wait. The Pals goal should be to prevent deaths and destruction where they are. That would mean get rid of Hamas. It would not mean allowing your babies to be killed because you hate Israel. Hamas wants the babies killed and hungry.

It's true, as long as people only see Israel as illegal and displacing some Pals, there will never be peace. Those people will not be satisfied until Israel is gone.

Israel defends itself with retaliation and the "barrel of a gun". They seek peace through diplomatic efforts. They've given up a lot and put themselves in danger for peace. When the leadership of other countries have cared about their own people enough, peace has come. The Pals can have peace. You and I disagree on the solution. I say the solution is the Pals getting rid of Hamas and having their own country. You want them to have Israel. Who has the most to lose? The Pals. Who decides whether or not there is peace? The Pals. What do they choose instead? Hamas.

No one has to stop retaliating. Hamas has to stop attacking and causing the retaliation. The Pals need to stop supporting Hamas. They can sit and watch their babies be killed and be hungry but that won't bring peace. They show no desire for peace. They want Israel.

I say Israel has a right to be there and will remain there. You say the opposite. We will never agree.

If a person lobbed a mortar into my yard it wouldn't matter if anyone was hurt or not or anything great was damaged. The threat to my friends and family would make me do anything to ensure no more are lobbed. I'm not going to let it continue while I go talk to people who don't like me and don't like the lobbers. You don't threaten my family. If you hire bullies to harass us I will get rid of those bullies to defend my family. If you want to come live next to me in peace even though you don't like me, that's fine. I will use whatever I have to to defend us and I will use diplomatic means to try to stop the violence. It's a two parter. Israel does both, whether you see that or not.

So you see all of this is just wasted words. As long as you see Israel as only the result of terrorism, we will never come close. As long as you see the Pals as only displaced people, instead of people who can control their own future, we will never come close. The Pals could kick out Hamas and work through diplomatic means to get what they want. Ah, but no. Only Israel is supposed to do that. The Pals are supposed to keep making their children martyrs so the world who hates Israel anyway will protest. But, sure. I'M the one whose not neutral.

This is posted to no one in particular. It is from George Washington's farewell address.


"Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and
harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be,
that good policy does not equally enjoin it? . . . . .

"In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that
permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate
attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just
and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which
indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some
degree a slave.

"It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is
sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. . . .

"So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a
variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the
illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common
interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays
the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter
without adequate inducement or justification.

"It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to
others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by
unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting
jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom
equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or
deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to
betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium,
sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous
sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a
laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition,
corruption, or infatuation."

And, I think the Pals who have gotten kicked out of most of the Arab countries also work against themselves.

If Israel hadn't kicked them out of their own country, they wouldn't have been in Egypt or Jordan.

Now in posts to me you're saying Israel was formed just from terrorism. You're saying Israel stole the land from the Pals. You're saying Israel just massacres innocents in reaction to piddly little missiles being lobbed aimlessly. Tell me how you're a great admirer of Israel? You even said this to sooz in post #33: "I recall that Israel was a nation created out of death and terrorism. Menachim Begin and Yitzak Shamir were proponents of terror. Has it ever really stopped?"

Israel has pushed illegal settlements into Palestinian areas for it's entire existence. The violations of Palestinian rights has occurred throught Israeli history. There is blood on everyone's hands.

You ignore the innocents killed continually in bombings, artillery strikes, etc and justify those innocents who are killed by saying that they support Hamas, are Palestinians and thereby bring death upon themselves.

I think that's a despicable way to think.

Dazzle me with another response.