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PostPosted: 11/19/09 6:05 am • # 26 
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Having worked my whole career for a major, prominent lawfirm [part of the firm's reputation is as "lawyers' lawyers" because of the expertise in complex and cutting edge work done], I understand and trust our legal system ~ but I also recognize its' flaws ~ you raise excellent points, jim ~ there is NO denying that a "civilian" trial in NYC presents unusual but very real risks ~ physical as well as legal ~ another BIG question is finding "peers" for the jury ~ there is ALWAYS a risk with jury trials, no matter how "slam dunk" a case might look ~ I have deep concern how the admission of waterboarding [a legally recognized form of torture] might play with jurors ~ but even considering all of those significant risks, and more, I believe a "civilian" trial in NYC is the appropriate means and venue ~ ThinkProgress had an excellent assessment in a Progress Report several days ago on this issue ~ I'll try to find it again ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 11/19/09 6:09 am • # 27 
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if these guys are POW's, THEN we can give them tribunals.

If they are POW's they can't be tried. They can, however, be held until the war ends (ie: about the time Hell freezes over). Further, most of them wouldn't qualify as prisoners of war since they were nowhere near where a war was being fought.

if not, according to Article IV, we HAVE to give them civilian trials.

If true, and I don't think it is, you can expect them to be acquitted. Looking only at the evidence that has been made public, I don't believe there is any way of convicting them based on the rules of evidence.


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PostPosted: 11/19/09 6:26 am • # 28 
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jimwilliam wrote:
Looking only at the evidence that has been made public, I don't believe there is any way of convicting them based on the rules of evidence.
Probably true ~ but jim, I am convinced there must be FAR more evidence that is NOT public [yet] to bolster the supreme confidence of Holder and Obama ~ while I might have qualms about "competency" for some of the lifer Justice Department attorneys, there is no question at all about the stellar legal brilliance of either Holder or Obama ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 11/19/09 6:37 am • # 29 
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Here's "The Progress Report" I mentioned above ~ it put a lot into perspective, at least for me ~ Sooz


THE PROGRESS REPORT

November 17, 2009
by Faiz Shakir, Amanda Terkel, Matt Corley, Benjamin Armbruster, Nate Carlile, Zaid Jilani, and Alex Seitz-Wald

TERRORISM

Faith In Our Justice System

Last week, Attorney General Eric Holder announced that the five Guantanamo Bay detainees charged with planning the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks will be facing justice a few blocks from the site of the former World Trade Center buildings. In one of the "highest-profile and highest-security terrorism trials in history," Justice Department prosecutors will seek out the death penalty for the self-described mastermind of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and the four others. What made Holder's announcement so significant is that the venue will be a U.S. federal court, rather than the military commissions favored by the Bush administration. "I am confident in the ability of our courts to provide these defendants a fair trial, just as they have for over 200 years," said Holder. "The alleged 9/11 conspirators will stand trial in our justice system before an impartial jury under long-established rules and procedures." The New York Times called the Attorney General's decision "bold and principled" and the Center for American Progress' Ken Gude said it was "a victory for the rule of law and the American system of justice." Many conservatives, however, rushed out knee-jerk statements condemning the decision, claiming that it imperils American security and won't deliver a proper verdict. But not only are they ignoring the long-standing precedent of prosecuting terrorists in U.S. courts, they're insulting the U.S. legal system and essentially saying that America's laws aren't strong enough to administer justice.

MOVING AWAY FROM A DISGRACEFUL LEGACY: One of the Bush administration's most
sordid legacies was the illegitimate, unjust system of military commissions it created to try Guantanamo Bay detainees. These tribunals essentially stripped defendants' legal rights, admitted evidence obtained through torture, and were declared unconstitutional by courts. Although Obama has kept a revised version of these commissions that are more in line with military standards, his administration's decision to try the 9/11 defendants in federal court is one of its boldest steps toward "rectify[ing] the disgraceful Bush detention policies." The Atlantic's Marc Ambinder also notes that this decision is refreshing because, unlike under the Bush administration, the Attorney General appears to be acting in spite of political interests, rather than being guided by them. Holder knew that his announcement would attract significant criticism from people who don't want the trials on U.S. soil, but he also recognized that the status quo wasn't making America any safer. "It's also not in our interest to denigrate our system of criminal justice -- the very bedrock of this country," added Tom Andrews, director of the National Campaign to Close Guantanamo. "If you are accused, you get to know what you know what you are accused of, you get to face your accusers, and you get to defend yourself in court, and then you face a trial and a conviction. This is who we are as a system. The Taliban? You can get a trial and a beheading in a few hours. That's not our system of justice."

A STRONG PRECEDENT: Many conservatives couldn't wait to issue statements blasting Holder's announcement and show how little faith they have in the U.S. justice system. House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) said that it "puts the interests of liberal special interest groups
before the safety and security of the American people." Rep. Peter King (R-NY) claimed that the decision puts New York at a greater risk of a terrorist attack. Both Sens. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) and John Cornyn (R-TX) said that it was inappropriate to treat the 9/11 defendants as "common criminals." Former Alaska governor Sarah Palin took to Facebook to express her thoughts about the Obama administration's "atrocious" decision. "Hang 'em high," wrote Palin about what she would like to see happen to Mohammed and the four other men. "It's an unnecessary advantage to give to the terrorists," Rudy Giuliani said about the trials on CNN on Sunday. "I don't know why you want to give terrorists advantages. And secondly, it's an unnecessary risk to the city of New York, which already has any number of risks." All of these right-wing statements are disappointingly predictable, but Giuliani's is the most hypocritical. After all, as mayor of New York City, Giuliani praised the prosecution of the 1993 World Trade Center bombers. In 1994, he said that the federal trial "demonstrates that New Yorkers won't meet violence with violence, but with a far greater weapon -- the law." "It should show that our legal system is the most mature legal system in the history of the world," he added. He has even supported the prosecution of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in New York City. In 2001, Mary Jo White, the U.S. attorney in Manhattan, went to Giuliani and asked him if he approved of bringing the terrorist suspects into the city; Giuliani indicated that "he would be supportive of her." The U.S. government has "prosecuted 195 terrorists in civilian courts since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, with a 91 percent conviction." Only "three terrorists have been tried before military tribunals."

CLOSING GUANTANAMO: Holder's announcement was a "
major milestone" toward Obama's goal of closing the Guantanamo Bay prison facility. In 2007, Gen. Colin Powell stressed that closing the facility is one of the most important steps the U.S. can take toward combating global extremism. "We literally bang ourselves in the head by having that place," he told GQ. "What are we doing this to ourselves for? Because we're worried about the 380 guys there? Bring them here! Give them lawyers and habeas corpus. We can deal with them. We are paying a price when the rest of the world sees an America that seems to be afraid and is not the America they remember." The Obama administration has indicated that it will likely miss its Jan. 22 deadline to close the facility, but it continues to work on finding places to relocate the detainees. Although places like Thomson, IL welcome the possibility of incarcerating the detainees in their town -- as well as the thousands of jobs that would come along with such a move -- conservatives continue to fear-monger against any cooperation. Gude has outlined four steps the Obama administration should pursue to get the Guantanamo closure back on track, including pushing the deadline back to July 2010 and limiting military detention "only to enemy fighters captured in combat zones" and using "criminal law to prosecute detainees captured far from any battlefield."

http://pr.thinkprogress.org/2009/11/pr20091117



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PostPosted: 11/19/09 6:37 am • # 30 
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if these guys are POW's, THEN we can give them tribunals.

If they are POW's they can't be tried. They can, however, be held until the war ends (ie: about the time Hell freezes over). Further, most of them wouldn't qualify as prisoners of war since they were nowhere near where a war was being fought
.

i don't think that is the standard for POW's (location). however, you are correct about POW's: i meant "lawful combattant" (versus unlawful) not POW.

if not, according to Article IV, we HAVE to give them civilian trials.

If true, and I don't think it is
,

it is. moreover, a person who's status is in question is to be given an INDEPENDENT TRIBUNAL to determine his status. having failed to do that, the US is in violation of the GC on about 1,500 counts in Bagram and Guantanimo, and perhaps as many as 3,000 through the rendition programme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant

you can expect them to be acquitted. Looking only at the evidence that has been made public, I don't believe there is any way of convicting them based on the rules of evidence.

if so, then they are not guilty by our legal standards. why should they be convicted?


Last edited by macroscopic on 11/19/09 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 11/19/09 6:48 am • # 31 
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including pushing the deadline back to July 2010 and limiting military detention "only to enemy fighters captured in combat zones"

according to the militarys own records, this is less than (50) men at Guantanimo, and some unknown number in Bagram.


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PostPosted: 11/19/09 10:26 am • # 32 
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if so, then they are not guilty by our legal standards. why should they be convicted?

One of the big problems with Western legal systems is that the actual guilt or innocence of an accused is not material to the outcome of a trial. Most times the two mesh by happy circumstance but much of the time the outcome is determined by the application of the law rather than the events themselves. (ie: a guy with a backseat full of cocaine gets off because a policeman looked in the window of his car under the wrong circumstances. That the guy actually had the cocaine doesn't matter. According to the law he is innocent.) Most times I'm all in favor of these restrictions because they do protect the freedom of all of us.

In the case of the guys charged with terrorism I honestly don't see how the strict rules of evidence could be applied and still come out with an outcome that is not only fair to the accused but is also fair to the people of the United States. I know that, in normal circumstances, fairness in a trial is only supposed to apply to the accused but, in this case, I really believe there has to be some fairness shown to the people as well. Once again, just as an example, do you think KSM was Mirandized and given his right to a lawyer and to be silent when he was first turned over to American custody? From what I understand of American law, that's a deal breaker right there. KSM could walk without so much as a minute's evidence being heard.


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PostPosted: 11/19/09 11:03 am • # 33 
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One of the big problems with Western legal systems is that the actual guilt or innocence of an accused is not material to the outcome of a trial.

our legal system is founded on the following principle:

better 100 guilty go free than one innocent man imprisoned.

agree or disagree, jim?


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PostPosted: 11/19/09 6:51 pm • # 34 
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macroscopic wrote:
One of the big problems with Western legal systems is that the actual guilt or innocence of an accused is not material to the outcome of a trial.

our legal system is founded on the following principle:

better 100 guilty go free than one innocent man imprisoned.

agree or disagree, jim?
Frankly, macro, I think that statement is as trite as "they hate us for our freedoms." Best would be all the innocent go free and the guilty be imprisoned.

The problem with the statement, macro, is that the value of it has got lost in the legal system. As I pointed out before, the legal system has moved past the point where right/wrong/innocent/guilty really have little bearing on the outcome of a trial. The question of "whether he did it" has taken second seat to "how did they find out he did it". The legal system has evolved to the point where it is so complex that the rights we afford an individual actually jeopardize the rights of the rest of us. In most criminal cases I tend to grouse about this but am secretly thankful because it could be my butt on the line next time. As imperfect as it is, the system is also geared toward trying accused where the system has been known and applied since the very start of the investigation. In the case of these accused terrorists none of the legal procedures were followed simply because it was expected they would be handled extrajudicially. Now that they are in the judicial system they are going to be able to argue for a "not guilty" verdict based solely on the basis of no Miranda warnings, provision of lawyers in a timely manner, their right to remain silent, no warrants for the accumulation of evidence, etc. My concern is, whether or not they actually are terrorists will make little difference to the outcome.


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PostPosted: 11/20/09 4:13 am • # 35 
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Frankly, macro, I think that statement is as trite as "they hate us for our freedoms."

i don't think it is trite at all. i think it is deadly serious, and the cornerstone of our justice system.

but you are not the only one who seems to think this idea is obsolete. Rumsfeld thinks so too. that is what the 1% doctrine is about: the idea that it is better to imprison, torture, and abuse 100 innocent men than let one guilty one go free. i hope he goes to the gallows for it, personally.

since you seem to think that it is a churlish piece of rubbish- what do you think of the golden rule, jim? is it equally quaint?

Best would be all the innocent go free and the guilty be imprisoned.

that is not the point. the point is that our justice system WILL make mistakes. it has. many times. the question is WHICH SIDE WOULD YOU HAVE IT ERR ON?

i have already stated that i am not at all certain that KSM did what he said he did. but i do know one thing. he was waterboarded 183 times.


Last edited by macroscopic on 11/20/09 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 11/20/09 4:22 am • # 36 
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The problem with the statement, macro, is that the value of it has got lost in the legal system. As I pointed out before, the legal system has moved past the point where right/wrong/innocent/guilty really have little bearing on the outcome of a trial. The question of "whether he did it" has taken second seat to "how did they find out he did it".

well, i DO see this point, jim. what do you propose to do about it? if the government were allowed to spy on me continuously, i am certain that they could find something to fine or charge me with. would that be OK with you?

The legal system has evolved to the point where it is so complex that the rights we afford an individual actually jeopardize the rights of the rest of us. In most criminal cases I tend to grouse about this but am secretly thankful because it could be my butt on the line next time. As imperfect as it is, the system is also geared toward trying accused where the system has been known and applied since the very start of the investigation. In the case of these accused terrorists none of the legal procedures were followed simply because it was expected they would be handled extrajudicially. Now that they are in the judicial system they are going to be able to argue for a "not guilty" verdict based solely on the basis of no Miranda warnings
, provision of lawyers in a timely manner, their right to remain silent, no warrants for the accumulation of evidence, etc.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! miranda warnings do not apply to international law. you know that right? the ICOJ rules have nothing like this. it is neither a requirement, nor is it an international right. HABEAS CORPUS, however, for NON POW'S, IS an international right. and it is one that was VIOLATED IN THOUSANDS OF CASES in our detainment programme.

My concern is, whether or not they actually are terrorists will make little difference to the outcome.

i am having a hard time not saying "good" to this. a person should be tried on the basis of fact, not on the basis of some presumed outcome. i am actually not pleased with Mr. Holders comments which indicate that the verdict is a foregone conclusion. i personally do NOT believe that KSM did even 10% of what he did. i think that his 183 waterboardings and routine abuse are relevant both to his "confessions" and to his eventual sentencing.


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PostPosted: 11/20/09 8:08 am • # 37 
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[i]BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! miranda warnings do not apply to international law. you know that right? the ICOJ rules have nothing like this. it is neither a requirement, nor is it an international right. HABEAS CORPUS, however, for NON POW'S, IS an international right. and it is one that was VIOLATED IN THOUSANDS OF CASES in our detainment programme.[/i]

They are not being tried by an international court nor under international law. They are being tried under American law so all those rights do apply.

i am having a hard time not saying "good" to this. a person should be tried on the basis of fact, not on the basis of some presumed outcome. i am actually not pleased with Mr. Holders comments which indicate that the verdict is a foregone conclusion. i personally do NOT believe that KSM did even 10% of what he did. i think that his 183 waterboardings and routine abuse are relevant both to his "confessions" and to his eventual sentencing.

I agree about KSM. He has confessed to virtually every terrorist act in the past 20 years even though those confessions fly in the face of known facts. That's why I raised the point of other people having been convicted of the crimes he is being charged with. If he is convicted of the same crime does that mean there has been an error in the other convictions. Will those guys go free? At the very least his confessions have to be thrown out. The State can't pick and choose when he was lying and when he wasn't.

Over all, macro, I don't think we disagree on a whole lot. My contention is simply that the process leading up to the trials was so far beyond the norm of criminal investigations that to suddenly thrust them into the civil law process means they will either have to go free based on technical abnormalities or their rights as an accused will have to be abrogated. Either way, a "fair" trial will not happen.


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PostPosted: 11/20/09 8:16 am • # 38 
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You make excellent and troubling points, jim ~ but think of the several successful terrorist prosecutions in the US ~ I'm sure the same "failures" or "limited" due process applied there, too ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 11/20/09 9:05 am • # 39 
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You make excellent and troubling points, jim ~ but think of the several successful terrorist prosecutions in the US ~ I'm sure the same "failures" or "limited" due process applied there, too ~

Sooz


Sooz: The successful terrorist trials in the U.S. have all been based on events that took place mainly within in the U.S. and were investigated under the normal rules. These trials are going to be held primarily on events that took place outside the U.S. and the investigations certainly did not involve the approved procedures.

A little preview of what could happen in these trials is what happened in Germany a couple of years ago. Two men accused of direct involvement in 9/11 went on trial. A large part of the evidence against them was based on information provided by the U.S. The German courts, however, refused to accept just the American say-so on the evidence and wanted the witnesses to actually appear in court where they could be directly examined and cross-examined. The U.S. refused to provide the witnesses on National Securty grounds and the men were acquitted. I don't think your courts or your law as it currently stands would act in any way different than the German courts. Unless some sort of extra-judicial procedure can be determined for these trials, I think there's a very high probability that they will be acquitted.


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PostPosted: 11/20/09 9:40 am • # 40 
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They are not being tried by an international court nor under international law. They are being tried under American law so all those rights do apply.

sorry if i was unclear, jim. i know this is a US court and a US trial. my point is that under international law, the Miranda rule does not apply.
i don't believe that it applies to TRANSNATIONAL cases like this, either, where US citizens are not on trial. at least that is what a respected attorney on NPR said yesterday.

Will those guys go free? At the very least his confessions have to be thrown out.

i agreee that his confessions will be thrown out. i am thinking that at least 75% of the guys in GITMO were guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. the last time i checked that wasn't a crime. the government appears to be saying that the confessions are not required, jim. at least that is how i am reading this.


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PostPosted: 11/20/09 9:42 am • # 41 
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Over all, macro, I don't think we disagree on a whole lot. My contention is simply that the process leading up to the trials was so far beyond the norm of criminal investigations that to suddenly thrust them into the civil law process means they will either have to go free based on technical abnormalities or their rights as an accused will have to be abrogated. Either way, a "fair" trial will not happen.

a tribunal is a distinctly unfair trial- particulary if tortured testimony was to be allowed ala Military Commissions Act of 2008. so, given the prospect of a grossly unfair trial, my preference goes to the less grossly unfair one that is currently being offered.


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PostPosted: 11/20/09 9:49 am • # 42 
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a tribunal is a distinctly unfair trial- particulary if tortured testimony was to be allowed ala Military Commissions Act of 2008. so, given the prospect of a grossly unfair trial, my preference goes to the less grossly unfair one that is currently being offered.

On the Tribunals we agree 100%, macro. The Tribunals, as they were established, were a joke not even worthy of the title "kagaroo court". That doesn't mean that somewhere between the civil courts and the tribunals there can't be a system that provides a "fair" trial for everyone involved. Hopefully, this batch would be the only time such a process would have to be used, that the U.S. will never again resort to the tactics it used under the previous administration.


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PostPosted: 11/20/09 9:59 am • # 43 
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jimwilliam wrote:
a tribunal is a distinctly unfair trial- particulary if tortured testimony was to be allowed ala Military Commissions Act of 2008. so, given the prospect of a grossly unfair trial, my preference goes to the less grossly unfair one that is currently being offered.

On the Tribunals we agree 100%, macro. The Tribunals, as they were established, were a joke not even worthy of the title "kagaroo court". That doesn't mean that somewhere between the civil courts and the tribunals there can't be a system that provides a "fair" trial for everyone involved. Hopefully, this batch would be the only time such a process would have to be used, that the U.S. will never again resort to the tactics it used under the previous administration.


you're no fun, jim. i wanted to brawl!Image


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PostPosted: 11/21/09 5:21 am • # 44 
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Macro: I'm usually able to argue both sides of the fence, but I don't see how anybody could defend a system where, if the government didn't like the outcome of an already rigged trial, they could just anul the verdict and send it back until they got one they liked.


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PostPosted: 11/21/09 9:07 am • # 45 
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jimwilliam wrote:
Macro: I'm usually able to argue both sides of the fence, but I don't see how anybody could defend a system where, if the government didn't like the outcome of an already rigged trial, they could just anul the verdict and send it back until they got one they liked.

well, i expect this to go badly for the record. but i also think it is the right thing to do.


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PostPosted: 11/21/09 12:43 pm • # 46 
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This explains at least some of the mindset in selecting federal court for KSM ~ and it makes sense ~ attack military target = military tribunal; attack civilian target = federal court ~ now I'm guessing that since KSM's "confessions" cannot be introduced/used as evidence, it is likely that neither can the [now admitted] water-boarding be introduced/used ~ the bolding below is mine ~ Sooz


Terror trials differ in civilian, military courts

Associated Press


WASHINGTON - The federal courts and military tribunals that will prosecute suspected terrorists vary sharply in their independence, public stature and use of evidence. But the Obama administration has so far offered no clear-cut rationale for how it chooses which system will try a detainee.

The fuzzy line drawn by the administration has made it easier for critics on both the left and right to assert that no firm legal principle is guiding the choices.

The administration has said similarly situated suspects can be tried in either system, while others may still be held without trial because there is insufficient evidence for either proceeding, but they are considered too dangerous to release.

"I think the Obama administration is trying to straddle this debate between whether we should approach al-Qaida as a problem of massive-scale criminality or as a problem of war," said Matthew Waxman, a former Bush administration State Department and Pentagon official now at Columbia University law school.

Indeed, on Capitol Hill last Wednesday, Attorney General Eric Holder testified, "The 9/11 attacks were both an act of war and a violation of our federal criminal law, and they could have been prosecuted in either federal courts or military commissions."

The administration is sending professed Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four alleged henchmen to a civilian trial in New York, while a suspect in the USS Cole bombing in 2000 and four other terror suspects will be tried by military commissions.

The major differences between the systems are the federal judiciary's independence, rooted in the Constitution and lifetime appointments of judges, and the relaxed rules for admitting evidence in military tribunals.

Federal courts bar evidence obtained by coercion. And the new law regarding military commissions that President Barack Obama signed last month forbids evidence derived from torture and other harsh interrogation techniques. But the commissions still have rules that allow greater use of hearsay testimony and, in some instances, could permit the introduction of coerced testimony.

Military judges ultimately will decide what evidence can be admitted, but the new law allows statements made by defendants to be used even if they are not given voluntarily in certain circumstances, including in combat situations. Written witness statements, rather than live testimony that is subject to cross-examination, also can be admitted by military judges.

The larger issue, for some civil libertarians, is what the American Civil Liberties Union's Jonathan Hafetz called a "legitimacy deficit."

The commissions set up under President George W. Bush to try terrorism detainees have been revised several times based on Supreme Court decisions and acts of Congress that moved their rules and procedures closer to federal courts.

"But they just don't have the credibility and never will have the credibility that federal courts have," Hafetz said.

Joanne Mariner, director of the terrorism and counterterrorism program at Human Rights Watch, said another indication of the reduced stature of the commissions is that, by law, they can never be used to try U.S. citizens.

"The federal courts are a co-equal branch of government and judges are constitutionally protected from interference. That is really important in politically charged and high-profile cases," Mariner said. "Military commission judges and prosecutors have no such protection."

On the other hand, supporters of the military tribunals say they provide sufficient protections for accused terrorists. Moreover, they say, the Sept. 11 attack is a classic war crime - the mass murder of civilians - for which military tribunals have traditionally been used.

"Other things being equal, you would think that targeting civilians makes the crime more grave," said Gregory G. Katsas, a Bush Justice Department official. "If you don't try Khalid Sheikh Mohammed by military commission, I don't know who you try."

A host of leading Republicans, including Bush's last attorney general, Michael Mukasey, and former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, have said the 9/11 defendants should be tried by military tribunal.

The administration appears to have made pragmatic and political choices after determining that it is likely to win convictions in a civilian trial of the alleged Sept. 11 plotters, but seems less sure of its prospects if suspects from other attacks were tried in federal court.

Holder hinted at this balancing act in his Senate Judiciary Committee testimony.

"I am a prosecutor, and as a prosecutor my top priority was simply to select the venue where the government will have the greatest opportunity to present the strongest case in the best forum," he said, while rejecting senators' assertions that convictions are easier in military commissions.

But he also said those who attacked a civilian target on U.S. soil were being sent to a civilian federal court and those who attacked or plotted against military targets abroad were going before tribunals.

Holder's formulation puts the U.S. in the position of distinguishing between American interests based on which government agency was attacked. The attack on a Navy warship, the Cole, is to be handled by military commission, while the bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa in 1998 have been prosecuted by successive administrations in federal court.

Waxman said that it is unlikely al-Qaida makes that distinction. "We're talking about a transnational terrorist network whose criminality extends across borders," he said. "The scene of the crime is global."

The lack of a clear explanation of the administration's choice has led some legal experts to conclude federal courts will be used when convictions seem assured and commissions will handle cases where evidence is weaker or more difficult to get past a federal judge.

"It somewhat supports the idea that if we can't make the case, we'll send them to a second-class system, which is the military commission," said Laura Olson, senior counsel at The Constitution Project, which objects to using military tribunals.

This two-tiered system may not entirely satisfy civil libertarians who want the administration to abandon the commissions or the Republican-led opposition in Congress that objects to giving Mohammed and the others their day in federal court.

But it could prove a viable approach that both avoids the credibility problems of using commissions for the highest visibility cases and the risk of acquittals if less devastating attacks were tried in civilian courts, said University of Chicago law professor Eric Posner.

"This moderate view that avoids the two extremes may be very appealing to people in the long run," Posner said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091121/ap_ ... ommissions



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PostPosted: 11/21/09 12:46 pm • # 47 
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The larger issue, for some civil libertarians, is what the American Civil Liberties Union's Jonathan Hafetz called a "legitimacy deficit."

bingo. that hits it right on the head. well put.


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PostPosted: 11/21/09 12:48 pm • # 48 
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there is another aspect of this that is only lightly touched upon here. if the commissions THEMSELVES are challenged, then the cases will get thrown out. but that is impossible in a federal trial. they can only be APPEALED.


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PostPosted: 11/23/09 3:54 am • # 49 
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This confirms that there are laws and procedures in place to deal with the "thorns" in terrorism prosecutions in federal court ~ my guess is that this "Classified Information Procedures Act" or something very similar covers the "due process" thorns as well ~ note, btw, that this "Classified Information Procedures Act" was enacted in 1980 ~ Sooz


The extreme secrecy of the federal courts


Once conservatives became embarrassed by their cowardly warnings that we would all be killed if we held a 9/11 trial in New York, they switched to a new argument: trials in a real court would lead to the disclosure of classified information that would help the Terrorists. In advancing this claim,
they relied on the always-unhinged rantings of National Review's Andy McCarthy -- who has also suggested that Bill Ayers was the real author of Barack Obama's "Dreams from my Father"; attacked his own editors for pointing out the falsehoods of Sarah Palin's "death panel" claims, which McCarthy insisted were true; defended the Birther movement and dissented from NR's editorial rejection of it; and was excoriated by Rich Lowry for claiming that Obama "rather likes tyrants and dislikes America." This person -- someone who is often too fringe, hysterical and delusional even for National Review -- is the "legal expert" on which the Right is relying to claim that real trials will jeopardize classified information.

To see how false this claim is, all anyone ever had to was look at the Classified Information Procedures Act, a short and crystal clear 1980 law that not only permits, but requires, federal courts to undertake extreme measures to ensure the concealment of classified information, even including concealment from the defendant himself. Section 3 provides: "Upon motion of the United States, the court shall issue an order to protect against the disclosure of any classified information disclosed by the United States to any defendant in any criminal case in a district court of the United States." Section 9 required the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court to consult with the Attorney General and Defense Secretary to develop rules to carry out the Act's requirements, and the resulting guidelines provide for draconian measures so extreme that it's hard to believe they can exist in a judicial system that it supposed to be open and transparent.

To see how severe these secrecy measures are, consider
what is currently being done in the criminal case of Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani, the first accused Terrorists sent by the Obama administration to New York to stand trial after being interrogated and tortured for years in CIA black sites and at Guantanamo with no charges:


Quote:

To ensure that secrets do not leak, Judge Kaplan has imposed a protective order on all classified information, which may be reviewed by the defense lawyers only in a special "secure area," a room whose location has not been disclosed.

The order covers all materials that might "reveal the foreign countries in which" Mr. Ghailani was held from 2004 to 2006 -- the period when he was in the secret jails -- and the names and even physical descriptions of any officer responsible for his detention or interrogation, the order says.

It also covers information about "enhanced interrogation techniques that were applied" to Mr. Ghailani, "including descriptions of the techniques as applied, the duration, frequency, sequencing, and limitations of those techniques."

The defense lawyers, who had to obtain security clearance, cannot disclose the information to Mr. Ghailani without permission of the court or the government. Any motions they write based on the material must be prepared in the special room, and nothing may be filed publicly until it is reviewed by the government.

So, last Monday, when Mr. Ghailani's lawyers filed a motion seeking dismissal of the charges because of "the unnecessary delay in bringing the defendant to trial," they included only a few mostly blank cover sheets.

The rest of the motion, which presumably offers rich details about Mr. Ghailani's time in detention, remains secret, and a censored version will be made public only after it is cleared by the government.

Does that sound like a judicial process incapable of concealing secrets, or does it sound more like a Star Chamber where the justice system operates in the dark, even to sheild government torture and illegal prisons from disclsoure? Many federal judges -- particularly in criminal cases -- are notorious for being highly sympathetic to the government. That's even more true in a case involving one of the most hated criminal defendants ever to be tried in an American court, sitting a very short distance from the site where he is alleged to have killed 3,000 people in a terrorist attack. And note that the law permits the judge no discretion: if the Government claims something is classified, then "the court shall issue an order to protect against the disclosure of any classified information." With some exceptions, ever since the "War on Terror" began, nobody has safeguarded government secrets as dutifully and subserviently as federal judges -- even when those secrets involve allegations of war crimes and other serious felonies. That's what DOJ officials mean when they keep praising Southern District of New York judges for their supreme competence and expertise in handling terrorism cases. Federal courts in general love to keep what is supposed to be their open proceedings a secret, but that instinct is magnified exponentionally in national security and terrorism cases.

Even during the Bush years, numerous defendants accused of terrorist acts were tried and convicted in federal courts -- John Walker Lindh, Richard Reid, Zacarias Moussaoui, Ali al-Marri, Jose Padilla. Those spewing the latest right-wing scare tactic (Osama bin Laden will learn everything if we have trials!) cannot point to a single piece of classified information that was disclosed as a result of any of these trials. If that were a legitimate fear, wouldn't they be able to? Like most American institutions, our federal court system is empowered to shield from public disclosure anything the government claims is secret. Just look at the extreme measures invoked in the Ghailani case to see how true that is.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... /23/courts



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PostPosted: 11/23/09 4:25 am • # 50 
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hahahaha. good post, sooz. well done.


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