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PostPosted: 04/06/09 9:59 pm • # 51 
What is a step? Writing a Constitution to appease us that means nothing? A woman legally elected to that "fine" government was able to be suspended for the rest of her term because the guys didn't like that she told the truth to the media? How is that a step?


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PostPosted: 04/06/09 10:02 pm • # 52 
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It has taken nearly 800 years for common law to evolve into what it is today and it is still evolving. Should we revert to a feudal system? After all, the Magna Carta was such a small step.


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PostPosted: 04/06/09 10:09 pm • # 53 
Lmao. How silly is that.

Our kids are dying for Afghanistan. Right now and in the future, the women are still being abused and treated as worthless. The money we send to them is not getting to those it is supposed to go to and people are living in poverty. The leader of the Government says he sees nothing wrong with a husband raping his wife. A woman who is legally elected and speaks the truth is taken out of he office and threatened with death for it. They can take as long as they want, but not on the blood of our kids. Let those brave men in their govt go fight the Taliban and let the women run the govt. The men are in control, we are not helping the women, the men are not worth dying for. There is no reason to stay supporting a government that goes against everything we supposedly stand for.


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PostPosted: 04/06/09 10:11 pm • # 54 
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Like most westerners, you (and I) have been conditioned to instant gratification.


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PostPosted: 04/06/09 10:15 pm • # 55 
What does that have to do with the issue oskar? The issue is we are supporting a country that goes against everything we supposedly value. Our kids should not be dying for it. Instant gratification is me wanting our kids home and safe now instead of fighting and dying for people who aren't worth a drop of their blood? Damn right I want that.


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PostPosted: 04/06/09 10:23 pm • # 56 
When we wanted freedom we fought for it ourselves. We made a Constitution. When it became apparent we were not living up to the Consitution we had a civil war, we ourselves fought for it. When people were still being denied their rights we fought for them. I say if Afghanistan wants any of that, THEY fight for it, not us.


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PostPosted: 04/06/09 10:23 pm • # 57 
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Plenty if you think about it.


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PostPosted: 04/06/09 10:28 pm • # 58 
Nope oskar, nothing. It has nothing to do with it. We are talking about our kids dying. You, who have never fought, says hey it takes time. You are perfectly willing to let our kids keep dying for however long it takes, which would be forever. I'm not. It was wrong to send them there in the first place and it is even more wrong to keep them there now. Karzai is not worth it. The men of Afghanistan are not worth it. We are not helping the women by being there. You go ahead and take your time with your kids. I want ours home.


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PostPosted: 04/06/09 10:33 pm • # 59 
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So first you gripe about the law Karzai signed and now you gripe about the law being revisited. Seems to me you don't really don't give a crap about the Afghan women but will use any and all excuss to bail out on them.


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PostPosted: 04/06/09 10:46 pm • # 60 

Lmao. I did not gripe about the law being revisited. It doesn't matter whether it is or not. The men will do what they want. Karzai still thinks there's nothing wrong with it. If it is changed back it will only be in words not in actions. You really want to support the guy who says there is nothing wrong with the law and signed it? You really want to support the guy and his fellow worthless men that kicik out a legally elected woman for speaking the truth? You want kids to die for that?

I say we should support the women. We aren't now. We are giving money to Karzai and none gets to the people who need it. We are supporting Karzai who sees nothing wrong with men raping their wives. We are not helping the women at all. A brave woman there says the women don't need us there, they need our support. The issue is not bailing out or not, it's helping the women or not and we aren't by being there. Did you even read what the woman said?

I don't give a crap about the Afghan men. In fact, I hate them. If they want to keep the Taliban from coming back, they need to stop abusing their women and get out there and fight the Taliban themselves.

I use only one excuse for leaving there. We never should have gone there and we are not helping the women and children by being there. There is no reason for our kids to die.

How can you live with yourself, having never served yourself, and so willingly leaving your kids in to die and be maimed? For what? Why do you think it's ok for your kids to sacrifice for a monster like Karzai when you never sacrificed for anything?

What is wrong with wanting a country to fight for itself?



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PostPosted: 04/06/09 10:48 pm • # 61 
BTW that was really a very weak try at turning the debate back. Are you not able to handle the points I made?


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PostPosted: 04/06/09 11:40 pm • # 62 
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They aren't worth it.


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PostPosted: 04/06/09 11:48 pm • # 63 
I have to retract what I previously said about our being supported by almost all women.

Neither the US nor Jehadies and Taliban,
Long Live the Struggle of Independent and Democratic Forces of Afghanistan!



Seven years back the US government and its allies were successfully able to legitimize their military invasion on Afghanistan and deceive the people of the US and the world under the banners of "liberating Afghan women", "democracy" and "war on terror". Our people, who had been tormented and oppressed by the Taliban's dominance, were filled with hope but soon their dream of the establishment of security, democracy and freedom was shattered in the most painful manner.

By the installation of the puppet government of Karzai, the US reused its creations and continued its deal with the Jehadi criminal warlords. From the very start, Mr. Karzai shunned the demands and trusts of the people and chose to compromise with the criminals of the "Northern Alliance" and placed the filthiest faces in the key posts of the government. In contradiction to the shameless claims of the ministers and other treacherous and corrupt officials, our people feel more ill-fated; the country has been turned to a mafia state and self-immolation, rape and abduction of women and children has no parallel in the history of Afghanistan.

Despite Karzai's pretence and crocodile tears, we witness that rapists are not only protected from persecution but forgiven, as Karzai announced amnesty for the people who had raped and then killed a woman and with this filthy act, soaked his hands in crime too!

On one hand, Karzai talks high of freedom of speech and democracy in his speeches and on the other hand a young journalist like Pervaiz Kambakhsh is behind bars and sentenced to death by the murderous band of Atta Mohammad; another brave journalist Naseer Fayyaz is forced to leave the country due to constant threats from big criminals including Ismail Khan and Qasim Fahim, and investigation by KHAD simply because he exposes the government and supports the truth. Some other noble and anti-fundamentalist people have been harassed and even harmed by the terrorists in power.

Karzai's government requested for $51 billion in the Paris Conference, whereas the previous money flooded into Afghanistan was not spent for the reconstruction of the country because of the atrocious corruption and indolence of ridiculous government officials. Moreover, people have been forced to sell their children due to destitution and starvation. The reality is that till now a big part of the aid have fattened the wallets and waists of the mafias of the "Northern Alliance", national and international NGOs and the corrupt governmental authorities. The people of the world should know that their aid is going to a government composed of fundamentalist criminals and technocrats who are also secret agents and corrupt to the marrow of bone and their aid has no benefit for the common people of Afghanistan.

The day to day expansion of the power of Taliban reflects the real nature of the "war on terror" which has empowered the roots of fundamentalist terrorism more than ever. This is only a showcase to justify the long military presence of the US in our country and in the region. The result of this war has been such a huge failure that even political and military officials of the US and other countries have mentioned it very explicitly several times.

Instead of removing the cancerous lump of the Taliban and their Jehadi brothers from the framework of Afghanistan, the troops of the US and its allies are bombarding wedding and joy parties and showering bullets on our oppressed people, especially women and children. Furthermore, when such crimes are exposed they shamelessly and haughtily deny them, and when the matter is proved, an arrogant "sorry" is offered, which pours more salt on the wounds of the people.

As we have declared many times, the US government has no and will not have any genuine concern for the condition of freedom, democracy and women's rights in Afghanistan. It is ready to accept a more corrupt, destructive and anti-democratic government than the one in power now, provided that its stooges are the rulers. Therefore today, some top criminals are being consistently freed from the prison. This clearly shows that "democracy" and "freedom of women" do not hold even an iota of value for the US administration and its allies in Afghanistan. They are planning to install a government made up of Talib and Gulbuddini criminals; Khalqi and Parchami Quislings; lackeys of the blood thirsty Iranian regime from the "National Front"; and some other reactionary and treasonous elements related to the intelligence services of the West, so that even without direct military presence they would be able to control the country and save the country from becoming Iraq where the people rose against the US forces and its allies. If the US argues that it has not committed treachery, with the establishment of a government woven of the dirtiest enemies in the history of Afghanistan, they have committed the biggest possible treason against the Afghan nation, and they will not be able to justify this with any kinds of fabrications and cheatings.

Forgetting their foremost duty of giving awareness, a portion of the intellectuals of our country are engaged in shameful deeds of creating and igniting the ethnic, religious and linguistic differences among people on which the occupations are pouring fuel too. Some have taken this to such a level of disgrace that they believe the Taliban to be the rescuing forces; and the band of the murderers and agents of the "National Front", and the groups attached to the US and NATO to be the sources of prosperity.

The Afghan intellectuals who see the remedy of freedom from the captivity of Taliban and Jehadis as leaning on the US have no idea about the history of the US; more importantly about the bourn of Afghanistan in the past seven years. Neither can they present a single example of a country that had gained freedom and democracy with the help of the US military invasion nor can they bury the secrets of the bloody wars and invasions of the US in different parts of the world. Thus, the mentioned intellectuals are practically known as "agents of CIA" in the political scenario of Afghanistan.

RAWA believes that in the present situation, elections will not give a better result than the previous one. In the conditions where all the governmental bodies are mainly under the reign of drug kingpin criminals and under the direct control of the US, most probably not even a handful of noble and independence-loving people will find way into the parliament; therefore, the future parliament like today's will be home to the criminals and mafia whose life and status and solely depend on dollars, weapons and the US support. If the US believes that Karzai has expired, it will bring another of its creation and won't allow an independent, democratic and anti-fundamentalist candidate to become the president with people voting freely.

The insignificance of our people's freedom desires and the actual aim of the US and its allies has reached to such an extent that a very bright example is when the Britain government announces shamelessly that Afghanistan needs a dictator! Taking into account their contacts with the Taliban terrorists, the most suitable dictator in their opinion must be Mr. Mullah Omar. The US and its allies might control the strings of the dirty puppet show in Afghanistan by their powerful war machines with Mullah Omar, Rabbani, Mohaqiq, Sayyaf, Dr. Abdullah or the trained secret agents like Ali Ahmed Jalalis, but they should be sure that this treacherous spitting on democracy in Afghanistan and insulting the will and anger of our people on ignorance, medieval misogynists and Talibi and Jehadi fascism will be rubbed back on their faces by our people.

It seems that if the invaders stop pretending and the dictator according to them should be Mullah Omar or some other suit-clad Bache Saqao then they should cancel or postpone the ridiculous hard work of elections.

RAWA strongly believes that there should be no expectation of either the US or any other country to present us with democracy, peace and prosperity. Our freedom is only achievable at the hands of our people. It is the duty of all the intellectuals, all the democratic forces and progressive and independence-seeking people to rise in a constant and decisive struggle for independence and democracy by taking the support of our wounded people as the independent force, against the presence of the US and its allies and the domination of Jehadi and Taliban criminals. Combating against the armed and alien forces in the country without being loud-mouthed against the Talibi and Jehadi enemies would mean welcoming the misfortunes of fascism and religious mafia. Also, struggling against this enemy without fighting the military presence of the US, its allies and its puppet government would mean falling before foreign agents. The path of the freedom-fighters of our country without doubt, will be very complex, difficult and bloody; but if our demand is to be freed from the chains of the slavery of foreigners and their Talib and Jehadi lackeys, we should not fear trial or death to become triumphant.

Neither the US nor Jehadies and Taliban, Long Live the Struggle of Independent and Democratic forces of Afghanistan!

Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA)

October 7, 2008

Against this we have the facts that hundreds of thousands of girls are being educated when they weren't before, that there are 142 women in the Afghan parliament. The problem is not that our efforts aren't having results it's that's we're not doing the task well enough. The strategies of the Bush administration in leading this conflict have been awful. We allowed the raping Northern Alliance war criminals (the RAWA web site cheered when the Taleban ousted the NA) to do the ground work as a proxy army and this allowed them to be in a position to gain power post invasion. Essentially we gave them what the Russians could not when they supported them. Then Bush, to all intents and purposes, abandoned Afghanistan to invade Iraq. A consequence is that Afghanis are no further forward, the Taleban are not defeated but displaced causing problems foir Pakistan and Al Qaeda could still launch attacks on the west. We have broken Afghanistan and as Colon Powell stated we own it. We are responsible for the failures, it was broken before we went in, it is more broken now and we owe them, we need to up our game not only militarily but politically and then we must rebuild. We have a new administration with a new focus on Afghanistan and renewed NATO commitments.


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PostPosted: 04/07/09 12:07 am • # 64 

At least one of the women in the Parliament was suspended because she spoke the truth. All could be. Even with all those women in the Parliament they still pass a law and Karzai signs it saying men can rape their wives. So much for women in the Parliament. They have no power, they are tokens to appease us. It doesn't matter whether the law is turned back or not, the intent of the man we support is to allow rape of wives by their husbands. The women don't want us there.

The men of Afghanistan can fight the battle themselves. They are not worth a drop of our blood. The government we support is as bad as any they can produce. We are supporting a government that is against all we stand for. We should support the women and leave the men to fight for themselves. The women need protection from the government we support.

The government we support is horrible. The Taliban were horrible. The warlords are horrible. So, what do we think is going to change. They all suck and all hate women. Pakistan screwed itself. Afghanistan has always been broken. They can fix themselves, we can't. We owe them nothing. We owe the women a lot but we won't get them anything by staying there. There is nothing we can do there worth the blood of our kids. Nothing. They should not die for a leader like Karzai. The Afghanis elected him. They can have him. We can not die for him and call ourselves seekers of justice and democracy.



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PostPosted: 04/07/09 12:46 am • # 65 
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It's not very comforting to know that after NATO hastened to rally around the US in the Afghanistan invasion/occupation that there are still a good numver of Americans who are bent on maintaning the US's reputation as fair weather friends.


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PostPosted: 04/07/09 12:53 am • # 66 

Better fair weather friends than people who sit in their comfy chairs all safe and let their kids continue to be slaughtered for nothing. There is no honor in continuing to make the same deadly mistakes. And there is certainly no honor in letting our kids die supporting a government that thinks men should be allowed to rape their wives and a country whose women don't want us there. Screw what the women there want, eh?



Last edited by Sammy6769 on 04/07/09 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 04/07/09 12:55 am • # 67 
Sammy6769 wrote:

At least one of the women in the Parliament was suspended because she spoke the truth. All could be. Even with all those women in the Parliament they still pass a law and Karzai signs it saying men can rape their wives. So much for women in the Parliament. They have no power, they are tokens to appease us. It doesn't matter whether the law is turned back or not, the intent of the man we support is to allow rape of wives by their husbands. The women don't want us there.

The men of Afghanistan can fight the battle themselves. They are not worth a drop of our blood. The government we support is as bad as any they can produce. We are supporting a government that is against all we stand for. We should support the women and leave the men to fight for themselves. The women need protection from the government we support.

The government we support is horrible. The Taliban were horrible. The warlords are horrible. So, what do we think is going to change. They all suck and all hate women. Pakistan screwed itself. Afghanistan has always been broken. They can fix themselves, we can't. We owe them nothing. We owe the women a lot but we won't get them anything by staying there. There is nothing we can do there worth the blood of our kids. Nothing. They should not die for a leader like Karzai. The Afghanis elected him. They can have him. We can not die for him and call ourselves seekers of justice and democracy.


The failure to establish a Govt worth supporting is a direct result of the coalition under Bush relying on known war criminals to be our proxy army on the ground. This meant the NA were in prime position to gain power in the first election post invasion. The failure was not following through with a ground invasion of our own after the air assault. The NA on their own volition and against the wishes of the coalition marched on from Khandihar to Kabul. It was a failure, it was OUR failure and Karzai was our choice in as much as we supported him. His support of this atrocious legislation (intended only for the 20% Shia population) was an attempt to secure his success at the forthcoming. His having had to rethink it can only harm his electoral chances.

The likelyhood of establishing a "good" govt by the barrel of a gun at the first effort is remote but there is always subsequent elections (due immenently).

It's quite possible our efforts won't be supporting Karzai's inept and corrupt parliament after the next election.#


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PostPosted: 04/07/09 1:00 am • # 68 
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Screw what the women there want, eh?

That's precisely what you're are saying by bailing out.


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PostPosted: 04/07/09 1:03 am • # 69 

All factions in Afghanistan suck. The whole government made up of mostly men supported that law. There is no good alternative for the innocents in Afghanistan except killing all the men and letting the women rule. That ain't gonna happen. It's up to the Afghanis to make their government. Keeping away some Afghanis will not make for a good government and certainly wont make anything resembling a democracy.

The men of Aghanistan can fight their own battles and the women don't want us there. The men are not worth our blood and the women don't need our blood.



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PostPosted: 04/07/09 1:04 am • # 70 
Oskar, the women there want us out. You are the one saying screw what they want


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PostPosted: 04/07/09 1:09 am • # 71 
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Sure I did. LMAO


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PostPosted: 04/07/09 1:11 am • # 72 
Oskar. Take a breath, try to get your brain working again. The women in Afghanistan don't want us there. You want us there. You are the one saying screw what the women want.


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PostPosted: 04/07/09 1:15 am • # 73 
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LMAO


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PostPosted: 04/07/09 1:18 am • # 74 
Armchair generals are disgusting enough. There seems to be a common habit of lying and denying. Can anyone tell me why others should pay any attention to them?


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PostPosted: 04/07/09 1:26 am • # 75 
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It's ok, Sammy. Really. You're the great American hero. We've already heard it.


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