• If Obama wants peace deal, it must come at beginning of term, Anthony Zinni says
• So far, Obama's team has deferred to Bush on how to handle situation
• Obama could be faced with the crisis when he takes office
• Obama has pledged to make Middle East peace a priority

The recent airstrikes on Gaza are just the first stage of a wider military campaign approved by the Israeli Cabinet, Israeli government officials said Tuesday. Learn more about Gaza's politics and history »

Sooz, I just came over here to post about Gaza and found this. LOL I'm going to ask you to help me a little with a more basic explanation of the big picture over there. I find it enormously difficult to form an opinion on this because of the bias that permeates all accounts. Anything you've read from me so far is strictly focused on the actions we've witnessed this week, which to me, has been nothing but wreckless, moreso on the part of Israel. I don't care if either side is Jewish, Islamic, Mormon, Christian, Scientologists or any of that crap... the fact is they're waging a very scary campaign that only seems to be intensifying and as if things aren't bad enough in the ME, this seems to be the perfect set-up for the next WWIII. Frankly, it scares the hell out of me.

Now we have this article that appears this morning....

http://www.cnn.com/2008/W.../gaza.aid.boat/index.html

The Palestinians want to be nomads as they have been. That's just not possible any more. Unfortunately that was taken away from our own Native Americans, too. Jordan and Egypt slaughtered many Palestinians in their countries (the real homelands of the Pals) and exiled the rest. The vast majority of Palestinians actually belong in the territory of Jordan. That's one reason why Jordan and Egypt have made peace with Israel, so they won't be forced to take back the Pals.

The land that is now Israel was a desert wasteland like much of the area still is. Israel changed that. A huge commodity is water. Israelis found ways to have water. Some others would rather take theirs than work with the Israelis to get their own. Land was being bought and settled by Israeli's who feel that is their original homeland. They have as legitimate a claim to it as anyone. In my view, when the UN split up the land in that area, the thought was Israel would never survive, so that "problem" would be solved. The formation of Israel was not always pretty but neither was the formation of any country through revolt and rebellion, including our own. At any rate a tiny little piece of a huge area is Israel, surrounded by people who don't like her. At the same time, the Pals were offerred their own country and said no. They wanted the land Israel has.

What Israel wants and has always wanted is to live in peace. They want a safe home for all the Jews. When Ethiopian Jews were starving and trying to find a place to rest, Israel took in Ethiopian Jews. After the Holocaust and during, many Jews found their way to the land that is now Israel. Regardless of how anyone feels about woulda and shoulda, Israel is there and has a right to survive and live in peace now.

Israel has been attacked from all sides time after time. She has survived. Any territory she has taken was from those wars. Makes sense to me that you take the land from which you were attacked. You don't want to lose land, then don't attack her. In negotiations and peace treaties she has given much back with the assurance that no attacks will be allowed from that land. Egypt and Jordan have lived up to those treaties even with changes in leadership. Others have not.

The people of Lebanon elected some Hezbollah to their govt. Palestinians elected Hamas to theirs. Those two organizations continue to vow that they will push Israel into the sea. Can it be said that the people who elected them and support them want peace with Israel? I think not. There are Arabs living peacefully and happily in Israel. If I'm not mistaken there are some in the Israeli parliament. During the last war with Lebanon, the shells were lobbed from Lebanon into an Arab neighborhood in Israel.

Israel has given up land and is now being attacked over and over from that land. Israel has a right to survive and live in peace. They have a right to defend themselves. If attacked they attack back. The one thing I liked about Reagan was his belief in an immediate response. When the plane was blown up over Scotland and he knew it was Libya that did it he attacked immediately. That's what Israel does and I support it totally. The terrorist groups use "innocent" people to achieve their goals. In Lebanon, they used ambulances. Why? So Israel would be seen as attacking innocents in ambulances. Hamas uses boats and trucks etc. carrying humanitarian aid. Why? So Israel will be seen as attacking innocent humanitarians in boats. Of course, I question the idea that the terrorists would allow the aide to reach the people who need it. We can see all over the world where that is just a myth. The terrorists are not fools and they make sure the people want to help them by giving them what their crappy govts won't. That doesn't make them good and they aren't doing it out of love for the people.

No country can allow itself to be shelled. They have to stop the shelling. With the terrorists using the homes of families, schools and hospitals, those will be attacked in defense. If the people allow Israel to be attacked the people are in danger. That takes no great thinking to realize. The land that Israel kept after the wars made buffer zones. As Israel gives up that land in hopes for peace, they have no more buffer zone. Attacks must be dealt with swiftly and directly. If you don't want to be attacked by Israel don't allow attacks from your neighborhood. Simple.

As long as the people in the other countries and areas elect leaders who vow to destroy Israel, they will be in danger. Danger of their own making. They need to stand up and elect leaders who love them more than they hate Israel. These people are willing to send their own children to blow themselves up in hopes of killing a few Israelis. They have a long way to go. Of course Israel shuts down roads when under attack. There are swarms of people who try to get in to help the terrorists and send them arms etc.

Israel should never negotiate with Hamas until Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist. The problem is, Hamas will say ok let's have peace and then boom, cease fire is over (or even before it's over) they start the attacks again. Maybe the Palestinians should have their own country. If they want a peaceful one they can't elect terrorists who hate Israel and attack. If they continue to elect people who hate Israel, the violence that results is of their own doing. Maybe instead of sacrificng people to be suicide bombers against Israel, maybe they should sacrifice to keep the terroists out of their neighborhoods. What a concept.

I get very sick of people jumping on Israel for her reaction instead of jumping on those responsible for the action that cause Israel to react. The Palestinians should never be allowed to be part of Israel until they prove they can be trusted. That appears to be an impossibility. Their own Arab homelands couldn't tolerate them. If the Pals can't stop the attacks from Gaza, Israel should take it back.

The answer was given by Golda Meir. "There will be peace in the middle east when they start loving their own children more than they hate ours." Simple.

As for the article, Obama is doing right to let the current President be President but keeping up on everything. I hate the current President but love our Constitution. We have one President at a time. I do think that anytime one of our officials goes over there, their counterpart should go, too.

Hamas gets its wish

December 30, 2008

Fluffy, I'm really happy you want to learn about this ~ but you need to be very cautious [and skeptical] of much that you will find on the subject ~ there is both latent and obvious, and very rampant, bias against the Israelis ~ as I said earlier, I do NOT "approve" of everything the Israeli government does ~ but I also cannot think of another sovereign nation that would have shown equal, or even close, patience and perseverence of the Israelis in the face of the continuous, unrelenting shelling and suicide attacks ~

Thack, wouldn't a two-state result eliminate the need for Israel to absorb the Pals as Israeli citizens?

Sooz

Thanks, Fluffy. It's nice to see you here, also.

You can ignore the fact that Israel was carved out of Palestine, but it won't improve your argument. Those who had lived there were displaced.

Radicals are always a problem. The point is to try not to create more and more of them thru ham handed actions.

Israel may need to thumb it's nose at the world and go to war and remove Hamas and the other groups who run the West Bank and Gaza.

Pin pricks don't achieve their purpose and get the same response from the world community.

Thack, until the 1948 mandate that created the state of Israel, the entire area was called Palestine ~ and all indigenous Jews, coupled with the great influx of Jews settling there after fleeing Europe, were called Palestinians ~ the Jewish Pals became Israelis with the birth of Israel ~ the area identified as Israel was mostly barren desert ~ the state of Israel was Britain's solution to what they called "the Jewish problem" ~ not quite as horrific as Hitler's "solution", but hazardous nonetheless ~ today's Palestinians, while also indigenous to the area, are outcasts from other Arab/Muslim nations ~ and the REAL difference, at least to me, is the leadership of the conflicting factions ~ the Pal factions are obviously willing to kill not only Jews but each other as well ~ for dominance ~ Israel has built a thriving, vibrant, democratic nation in that barren desert landscape via back-breaking labor and using foreign aid to better the lives of her people ~ the Pal leadership has used its foreign aid to live in splendor while forcing the people into abject poverty ~ the Pals have had several opportunities for an independent state over the past couple of decades ~ and the Israelis have conceded to several Pal demands in hopes of peace, including 95% of the Pal demands when Arafat said "all or nothing" ~ but the Pals do not want to build a state ~ they only want what Israel has built ~

You hit a nerve with your phrase "... the same response from the world community" ~ that's a HUGE part of the problem ~ I deeply believe that Israel has shown remarkable restraint in NOT reacting to so many of the relentless attacks against her ~ you might be right that it will take an all-out war ~ but the Pal "leaders" have become masters at manipulating and victimizing their own people and somehow managing to move the blame and responsibility squarely onto the Israelis ~ and Israel is judged by a very different standard in "the world community" than other nations ~ there remains deep, living, active, sometimes growing/sometimes ebbing but never disappearing, bias and bigotry and hatred against Jews ~

So this all comes full-circle back to religion ~ tribal warfare at its worst ~ not only Pals vs Jews but Pals vs Pals as well ~

I'm starting to babble so I need to collect my thoughts ~ I do NOT agree with everything Israel does ~ but I cannot be dispassionate about the obvious and dishonest double-standard used against Israel ~

Sooz

Sooz, I understand and you don't have to clarify yourself.

I know the history. I am also a great admirer of Israel and of the jewish people.

Having said that, my view is one of simple realism.

I am aware of the long years of struggle by jews to carve out a piece of Palestine. I understand that Zionism wasn't the only driving force behind it.

My view is that Israel has a huge mountain to climb with world opinion (and I'm including the usual anti-jewish bigotry that is contained in societies around the world). It's never easy to fight a foe that appears weak and unsophisticated. Appearances are never as they seem.

I believe Israel has to make a decision to either smash Hamas and the radical elements that oppose Israel or they must find a way to have others intercede and insert themselves in between the Israelis and their enemies.

Failing that, I think we watch the same scenario played over and over.

"You can ignore the fact that Israel was carved out of Palestine, but it won't improve your argument. Those who had lived there were displaced." Thack

I wasn't aware my argument needed any improvement.

Yes it was known as Palestine. It was known by other things, too, depending on how far back in history you care to go. Under the British mandate Jews were allowed in large numbers to immigrate. The plan was to split the area into 2 states, Israel and Palestine. Jordan and Egypt wanted some of it but not the Palestinians with it. The Arab countries didn't want the Jews. The British wanted a homeland for the displaced Jews. Why not their original homeland? If we expect Israel to give it back to the Pals then we need to give this whole country back to the Native Americans. At any rate, the offer for their own country was not accepted by the Pals. Israel declared independence. She is there. She will stay there. Forever.

The thing I have the biggest problem with in a discussion about the Pals is why there is no outrage at what Egypt and Jordan did to the Palestinians. There are Arabs living peacefully in Israel. She didn't kick them out. Jordan and Egypt slaughtered many Pals and expelled the rest. There was a large territory included in the British mandate. Israel got a little of it. Be mad at the people who decided to split things up, not at Israelis for wanting a homeland in their original homeland. That territory has been ruled by many people. How far back in history do we go before we say ok this is where we stop.

As for world opinion, for some reason totally beyond my comprehension, world opinion will never be on the side of Israel and/or Jews. That can't be a factor in Israel's actions. Israel has worked with others to find peace. Carter helped with Egypt and Clinton with Jordan. The fact is peace came because the leaders of those countries cared about their people. Israel has tried the same with others. Every time there's an agreement, the radicals break it. Israel can't sit and let itself be shelled for fear of what the world will think. You're right, Thack, the answer is for Israel is to take out all the radicals. That's why she's ready to go into Gaza. No country and certainly not the UN will ever place themselves between Israel and those who attack her. That would require honor and courage beyond any other country's character.

As stated before, the answer is for the Pals to chose leaders that love them instead of leaders who hate Israel. They got the right to vote and look what they did, assured their own misery. The Pals chose to leave and whine instead of settle and thrive. That's not Israel's fault. Most of the Jews in Israel were displaced persons, too. Look what they did.

As stated before, the answer is for the Pals to chose leaders that love them instead of leaders who hate Israel. They got the right to vote and look what they did, assured their own misery. The Pals chose to leave and whine instead of settle and thrive. That's not Israel's fault. Most of the Jews in Israel were displaced persons, too. Look what they did.

You don't get to decide who the Pals choose to represent them.

The issue isn't settled and there is no guarantee that one day the Pals won't have their way. I'm trying to consider ways that Israel can win. They aren't going to kill their way to peace.

Well my goodness. I wasted a lot of time, eh? Hehe. I think other people are reading the thread too so please don't assume my posts are just for you., Thack, although much is in answer to your posts.

What miracle do you think will happen to make other countries put their lives in danger for the Jews in Israel? If they're so willing why have they not done it? Israel has done a hell of a lot to try to handle things peacefuly. In my view they've done too much. How is defending themselves thumbing their nose at the world? You want them to sit and let themselves be shelled while they try to play kissy with the world? They will never get the support of the world. If you think they can, I think you're naive.

Pardon me if I don't envision the demise of the only true democracy in the Middle East. No I can't choose who the Pals elect. I can say that if they elect the terrorists who want Israel destroyed then they do not want a peaceful solution. That's simply common sense. Israel is very wise and take out the leadership of Hamas when they can. They've done that a few times. They even took out a nuclear plant and may have to again. The problem is, they will be replaced with more. The thing that has to happen is for the Pals to get smart and stop helping and electing the terrorists. I don't consider people who elected Hamas to be innocents any more than the Germans who allowed Hitler into power were innocents.

You seem to think Israel has done and is doing nothing but using military might to try to solve problems. If so, you just don't pay attention.

If the Pals ever get their way, meaning the destruction of Israel, then the world has failed and is doomed.

You're trying to find ways for Israel to survive? Allowing attacks and taking Palestinians in as citizens would do that? Get real.

Everything in the Middle East has to do with the situation in Israel. Poopoo what I say if you want. It doesn't make it not matter. Israel is bad because they displaced some people and they should let them back in? Jordan's slaughter and displacement has nothing to do with that? What if Jordan offered the land back to the Pals? Israel shouldn't have to take in Jordanian Pals. That's not a solution. When attacks are happening Israel has to act quickly and strongly. If they don't, then arms and terrorists move in swiftly to help Hamas.

I din't call you naive I said if you believe that then I think you're naive. If you perceive that differently put your own emoticons around it. You don't dictate how others post on here.

Aren't we cute. "The final solution" . You've just given up a big part of your argument. What a slimey attempt to try to turn my words and make Israel the bad ones or compare them with the Nazi's. Shame shame. You think they should live together. I say they can't. You seem to think they shouldn't retaliate. I think they should. Care to tell me how you got the "final solution" out of that. You've now put in question all you've said as far as I'm concerned. So many people who try to tiptoe around and not show they are anti Israel love to use terms connected with Nazi Germany. Cheap tactic and ridiculous.

The blockade is to try to lessen the ability of the terrorists to get into Israel and lessen the arms and friends from getting into Gaza. Hamas has proven time and again they can't be trusted. It would be suicide for Israel to ever trust them enough to let down her guard.

Well, Thack, since you are so thin skinned I see no point in you and I continuing the discussion with each other. We will never agree and obviously we can't even debate without getting stupid. You seem to have settled in your view of me and I have certainly settled in my view of you. You can't argue facts so you demand I put little emoties in. Well, this is a serious subject, little emoties look stupid at times. That "final solution" shit of yours shows you're not interested in real debate. So, I propose we let the others have their say and respond to them and not each other. You know, live peacefully together in the same group by just ignoring each other.

Sammy, you are the one who seems extremely "thin-skinned". I thought we were discussing our views. You seem to think you are the only one with a valid view. That's fine with me.

Katy, the emoticon thing was a reference to another person who uses the word 'naive' to describe those who best her in a battle of wits. She will insult you, but then use emoticons as if that makes it okay. I find that trite.