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PostPosted: 01/05/09 9:22 am • # 1 

Gaza: the logic of colonial power

As so often, the term 'terrorism' has proved a rhetorical smokescreen under cover of which the strong crush the weak

by Nir Rosen

I have spent most of the Bush administration's tenure reporting from Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Somalia and other conflicts. I have been published by most major publications. I have been interviewed by most major networks and I have even testified before the senate foreign relations committee. The Bush administration began its tenure with Palestinians being massacred and it ends with Israel committing one of its largest massacres yet in a 60-year history of occupying Palestinian land. Bush's final visit to the country he chose to occupy ended with an educated secular Shiite Iraqi throwing his shoes at him, expressing the feelings of the entire Arab world save its dictators who have imprudently attached themselves to a hated American regime.

Once again, the Israelis bomb the starving and imprisoned population of Gaza. The world watches the plight of 1.5 million Gazans live on TV and online; the western media largely justify the Israeli action. Even some Arab outlets try to equate the Palestinian resistance with the might of the Israeli military machine. And none of this is a surprise. The Israelis just concluded a round-the-world public relations campaign to gather support for their assault, even gaining the collaboration of Arab states like Egypt.

The international community is directly guilty for this latest massacre. Will it remain immune from the wrath of a desperate people? So far, there have been large demonstrations in Lebanon, Yemen, Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq. The people of the Arab world will not forget. The Palestinians will not forget. "All that you have done to our people is registered in our notebooks," as the poet Mahmoud Darwish said.

I have often been asked by policy analysts, policy-makers and those stuck with implementing those policies for my advice on what I think America should do to promote peace or win hearts and minds in the Muslim world. It too often feels futile, because such a revolution in American policy would be required that only a true revolution in the American government could bring about the needed changes. An American journal once asked me to contribute an essay to a discussion on whether terrorism or attacks against civilians could ever be justified. My answer was that an American journal should not be asking whether attacks on civilians can ever be justified. This is a question for the weak, for the Native Americans in the past, for the Jews in Nazi Germany, for the Palestinians today, to ask themselves.

Terrorism is a normative term and not a descriptive concept. An empty word that means everything and nothing, it is used to describe what the Other does, not what we do. The powerful - whether Israel, America, Russia or China - will always describe their victims' struggle as terrorism, but the destruction of Chechnya, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, the slow slaughter of the remaining Palestinians, the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan - with the tens of thousands of civilians it has killed … these will never earn the title of terrorism, though civilians were the target and terrorising them was the purpose.

Counterinsurgency, now popular again among in the Pentagon, is another way of saying the suppression of national liberation struggles. Terror and intimidation are as essential to it as is winning hearts and minds.

Normative rules are determined by power relations. Those with power determine what is legal and illegal. They besiege the weak in legal prohibitions to prevent the weak from resisting. For the weak to resist is illegal by definition. Concepts like terrorism are invented and used normatively as if a neutral court had produced them, instead of the oppressors. The danger in this excessive use of legality actually undermines legality, diminishing the credibility of international institutions such as the United Nations. It becomes apparent that the powerful, those who make the rules, insist on legality merely to preserve the power relations that serve them or to maintain their occupation and colonialism.

Attacking civilians is the last, most desperate and basic method of resistance when confronting overwhelming odds and imminent eradication. The Palestinians do not attack Israeli civilians with the expectation that they will destroy Israel. The land of Palestine is being stolen day after day; the Palestinian people is being eradicated day after day. As a result, they respond in whatever way they can to apply pressure on Israel. Colonial powers use civilians strategically, settling them to claim land and dispossess the native population, be they Indians in North America or Palestinians in what is now Israel and the Occupied Territories. When the native population sees that there is an irreversible dynamic that is taking away their land and identity with the support of an overwhelming power, then they are forced to resort to whatever methods of resistance they can.

Not long ago, 19-year-old Qassem al-Mughrabi, a Palestinian man from Jerusalem drove his car into a group of soldiers at an intersection. "The terrorist", as the Israeli newspaper Haaretz called him, was shot and killed. In two separate incidents last July, Palestinians from Jerusalem also used vehicles to attack Israelis. The attackers were not part of an organisation. Although those Palestinian men were also killed, senior Israeli officials called for their homes to be demolished. In a separate incident, Haaretz reported that a Palestinian woman blinded an Israeli soldier in one eye when she threw acid n his face. "The terrorist was arrested by security forces," the paper said. An occupied citizen attacks an occupying soldier, and she is the terrorist?

In September, Bush spoke at the United Nations. No cause could justify the deliberate taking of human life, he said. Yet the US has killed thousands of civilians in airstrikes on populated areas. When you drop bombs on populated areas knowing there will be some "collateral" civilian damage, but accepting it as worth it, then it is deliberate. When you impose sanctions, as the US did on Saddam era Iraq, that kill hundreds of thousands, and then say their deaths were worth it, as secretary of state Albright did, then you are deliberately killing people for a political goal. When you seek to "shock and awe", as president Bush did, when he bombed Iraq, you are engaging in terrorism.

Just as the traditional American cowboy film presented white Americans under siege, with Indians as the aggressors, which was the opposite of reality, so, too, have Palestinians become the aggressors and not the victims. Beginning in 1948, 750,000 Palestinians were deliberately cleansed and expelled from their homes, and hundreds of their villages were destroyed, and their land was settled by colonists, who went on to deny their very existence and wage a 60-year war against the remaining natives and the national liberation movements the Palestinians established around the world. Every day, more of Palestine is stolen, more Palestinians are killed. To call oneself an Israeli Zionist is to engage in the dispossession of entire people. It is not that, qua Palestinians, they have the right to use any means necessary, it is because they are weak. The weak have much less power than the strong, and can do much less damage. The Palestinians would not have ever bombed cafes or used home-made missiles if they had tanks and airplanes. It is only in the current context that their actions are justified, and there are obvious limits.

It is impossible to make a universal ethical claim or establish a Kantian principle justifying any act to resist colonialism or domination by overwhelming power. And there are other questions I have trouble answering. Can an Iraqi be justified in attacking the United States? After all, his country was attacked without provocation, and destroyed, with millions of refugees created, hundreds of thousands of dead. And this, after 12 years of bombings and sanctions, which killed many and destroyed the lives of many others.

I could argue that all Americans are benefiting from their country's exploits without having to pay the price, and that, in today's world, the imperial machine is not merely the military but a military-civilian network. And I could also say that Americans elected the Bush administration twice and elected representatives who did nothing to stop the war, and the American people themselves did nothing. From the perspective of an American, or an Israeli, or other powerful aggressors, if you are strong, everything you do is justifiable, and nothing the weak do is legitimate. It's merely a question of what side you choose: the side of the strong or the side of the weak.

Israel and its allies in the west and in Arab regimes such as Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia have managed to corrupt the PLO leadership, to suborn them with the promise of power at the expense of liberty for their people, creating a first - a liberation movement that collaborated with the occupier. Israeli elections are coming up and, as usual, these elections are accompanied by war to bolster the candidates. You cannot be prime minister of Israel without enough Arab blood on your hands. An Israeli general has threatened to set Gaza back decades, just as they threatened to set Lebanon back decades in 2006. As if strangling Gaza and denying its people fuel, power or food had not set it back decades already.

The democratically elected Hamas government was targeted for destruction from the day it won the elections in 2006. The world told the Palestinians that they cannot have democracy, as if the goal was to radicalise them further and as if that would not have a consequence. Israel claims it is targeting Hamas's military forces. This is not true. It is targeting Palestinian police forces and killing them, including some such as the chief of police, Tawfiq Jaber, who was actually a former Fatah official who stayed on in his post after Hamas took control of Gaza. What will happen to a society with no security forces? What do the Israelis expect to happen when forces more radical than Hamas gain power?

A Zionist Israel is not a viable long-term project and Israeli settlements, land expropriation and separation barriers have long since made a two state solution impossible. There can be only one state in historic Palestine. In coming decades, Israelis will be confronted with two options. Will they peacefully transition towards an equal society, where Palestinians are given the same rights, à la post-apartheid South Africa? Or will they continue to view democracy as a threat? If so, one of the peoples will be forced to leave. Colonialism has only worked when most of the natives have been exterminated. But often, as in occupied Algeria, it is the settlers who flee. Eventually, the Palestinians will not be willing to compromise and seek one state for both people. Does the world want to further radicalise them?

Do not be deceived: the persistence of the Palestine problem is the main motive for every anti-American militant in the Arab world and beyond. But now the Bush administration has added Iraq and Afghanistan as additional grievances. America has lost its influence on the Arab masses, even if it can still apply pressure on Arab regimes. But reformists and elites in the Arab world want nothing to do with America.

A failed American administration departs, the promise of a Palestinian state a lie, as more Palestinians are murdered. A new president comes to power, but the people of the Middle East have too much bitter experience of US administrations to have any hope for change. President-elect Obama, Vice President-elect Biden and incoming secretary of state Hillary Clinton have not demonstrated that their view of the Middle East is at all different from previous administrations. As the world prepares to celebrate a new year, how long before it is once again made to feel the pain of those whose oppression it either ignores or supports?

http://www.guardian.co.uk.../dec/29/gaza-hamas-israel



Last edited by Thack on 01/05/09 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 01/05/09 3:53 pm • # 2 
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I've just read this article for the second time ~ and I still have not absorbed its full impact ~ Rosen is a gifted writer ~ but I need to read the article yet again ~ he is writing about a perfect world ~ and, sadly, we do NOT live in a perfect world ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 01/05/09 4:50 pm • # 3 
Interesting and blatantly biased.

Please post the articles he wrote condemning the slaughters and exile of Palestinians by Egypt and Jordan.

Was he opposed to us going into Afghanistan pursuing Osama after 9/11 and would he be against us going in to Pakistan to get him?

Was he opposed to the first gulf war after Iraq invaded Kuwait?

Does he really think the Pals would allow the Jews to live peacefully in a country where supposedly both would be equal?

Please post the articles he wrote condemning the others that held and controlled Palestine.

Please post the articles he wrote condemning the mighty Arab countries that all attacked tiny Israel at the same time.


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PostPosted: 01/06/09 2:46 am • # 4 

Interesting and blatantly biased.

Where is the bias? Explain where he shows bias. The writer is a jew.

Please post the articles he wrote condemning the slaughters and exile of Palestinians by Egypt and Jordan.

We aren't talking about Egypt and Jordan, but rest assured that you can apply what he says to both Egypt and Jordan. He's talking about 'colonial' type action. He's talking about powerful countries who subject those who are weaker. That was the case vis a vis the Egyptians/Pals, Jordanian/Pals and Israel/Pals. You can toss in US/Iraq/Afghanistan.

Was he opposed to the first gulf war after Iraq invaded Kuwait?

You don't seem to have a clue what he's writing about.

Does he really think the Pals would allow the Jews to live peacefully in a country where supposedly both would be equal?

I don't think that's his point but I'm sure he realizes that Israel isn't going to allow the Pals to live peacefully in Israel because to do that would eventually cause the jews to become a minority in Israel.

Please post the articles he wrote condemning the others that held and controlled Palestine.

He's condemning all countries that use 'colonial' type thinking to subjugate the weak. He is using Israel as a case in point but he implies that it's 'colonial' thinking that causes the strong to call those they subjugate 'terrorists'. Even while they commit obvious acts of terror against those 'terrorists'.

Please post the articles he wrote condemning the mighty Arab countries that all attacked tiny Israel at the same time.

Israel was given a land that didn't belong to it by other 'colonial' powers.

That is the crux of the problem. I don't think it's going away.

I was trying to be nice to you, but you come across as a thoughtless reactionary. I guess it's that Texas thang.






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PostPosted: 01/06/09 2:54 am • # 5 

Sooz, Samir is making the point that Israel is doing what all strong powers do to those who are weaker and are subjugated. They accuse them of being terrorists, subversives, etc and use that to justify terrorist actions against them.

If this isn't exactly what is happening, I would like it explained to me so that I can understand it better.



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PostPosted: 01/06/09 6:01 am • # 6 
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Separating my intellectual from my emotional response on this whole topic is a big hurdle for me ~ I'm still working on it ~ emotionally AND intellectually, I deeply believe that Israel has the right to exist and to defend herself on her own terms ~ same as any other sovereign nation ~ I also believe that expressing disagreement or disappointment with Israel's actions or policies does not necessarily or always rise to the level of anti-semitism ~ just as I believe that expressing disagreement or disappointment with our own actions and policies does not rise to the level of being unpatriotic ~

My first read of the op produced a similar reaction to Sammy's ~ and I recognize that that reaction is to what I see as the double-standard used when "judging" Israel ~ Egypt, Jordan, and other Arab countries were at least equally, if not more, brutal towards the Pals ~ but it is only Israel that is "judged" so harshly and publicly on the international stage ~ and for the record, BOTH Pals and Jews were indigenous to the region for centuries ~ following my second read, I was able to separate out the fact that Rosen is [unfortunately] using Israel as a current example of "colonial power" in describing the mindset of "the strong" vs "the weak" ~ that mindset IS the way of the world as I know it ~ "the strong" do make, and enforce, the rules ~ and this is where my emotions come into play ~ I hate war ~ I hate everything about it ~ I begrudgingly understand and recognize that there are legitimate reasons for warfare, but I still hate it ~ I hate the death, the destruction, the waste, the pain, the degradation ~ and I hate what war does to BOTH warriors and civilians ~ is there any way, short of total annihilation and somehow starting fresh, to change the way the whole world thinks and operates since the beginning of time?

I love the concept of Israel ~ I love what Israel has accomplished, surmounting obstacles and hardships to create a thriving oasis from desert ~ I love the spirit of the Israelis ~ I love that Israel, and other Arab nations, have proven that living in peace IS possible when all parties respect their own peace pacts ~ Hamas has proven themselves to be incapable, or maybe just unwilling, to live up to their own agreements, even with other Palestinian factions ~ but I admit that I am having a very hard time with Israel's overwhelming firepower and strength ~ it's one thing to target and take out the tunnels and Hamas leadership [which I believe has done a great DISservice to the Pals] ~ it's another thing to totally decimate a population ~ while I will support Israel's right to exist until my own last breath, I am truly rocked by current events ~

The problem is immensely complex ~ I see Sammy and Thack arguing two different elements ~ to me, Thack is arguing the consequences [not the sovereign right] of Israel's actions and Sammy is arguing Israel's sovereign right [not the consequences] of taking those actions ~ I'm starting to confuse myself, so I need to reorganize my thoughts and will come back to this thread ~

Sooz



Last edited by sooz06 on 01/06/09 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 01/06/09 7:39 am • # 7 

Sooz, it's true that the strong provoke the weak and the weak react to that by acting in ways that the strong can call 'terror' and then use extreme terror tactics (missiles, tanks, bombs, etc.) while justifying those terrorist actions.

I see this problem as what came first, the chicken or the egg. In this case, Israel was basically stolen from those who lived there previously. If you look at that, you can understand why Palestinians will do whatever they think they must do to fight those who stole their land.

No one took the land of the Egyptians, Jordanians, or any other arab nation to form Israel. There is no reason for those nations to have a problem with Israel. Even so, their initial reaction to the creation of Israel was to attack them, and I find that easy to understand.

Understanding that it's the governments of Egypt and Jordan, not the people, who refuse to back the Palestinians, is my main point in thinking that Israel does itself a great disservice by the kinds of responses it makes. Eventually, their actions could cause the end of moderate governments in the middle east.

It has already ended any chance for moderate Palestinians to gain more power.

Once again, I understand the feelings that jews have for Israel. That still doesn't excuse them from ignoring their own responsibility for the problem. They took land that wasn't theirs. That shouldn't be overlooked.

My view of the article is that it's premise says that those who call Palestinians terrorists must use the same definition towards the Israelis. Israel was created amidst the terror of Zionists and jews who were ready to kill to form a homeland.



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PostPosted: 01/06/09 9:01 am • # 8 
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I'm working my way thru your view, Thack ~ and I see at least parts of it as realistic ~ we could take it a step further and say that "terrorism" has many definitions ~ I'm beginning to get a better handle on the early history, but I'm still working on that ~ but in all other loosely-similar scenarios [meaning other wars that capture land and displace residents], it seems that eventually those displaced accept the "loss" and move on with their lives ~ the Pals have had numerous chances to do that, each time shot down [poor choice of words, I know] by the Pal "leadership" increasing demands ~ and while the Pals use that history as their rationale for their acts today, do you see the Pals' acts today as provocative? ~ kind of like poking a stick at a sleeping bear? ~ do you know any other nation that would WARN the enemy what it intended to bomb, giving the residents of that area a chance to escape? ~ I am just so deeply saddened by this whole circular mindset ~

Sooz


Last edited by sooz06 on 01/06/09 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 01/06/09 10:03 am • # 9 

Sammy said that he would fight if Mexicans lobbed mortars into Texas. I understand that. What he doesn't seem to be able to do is put himself in the place of the Mexicans. How would he feel then?

The new Israel began out of terrorism. It was carved out of Palestine and it displaced those non jews who lived there. Those who were displaced are not obliged to just forgive and forget. They can't forgive and forget because periodically, the Israelis kill large numbers of them. Usually hundreds are killed for each Israeli killed.

As I've said before, we used to look down on countries who did that and we still do, unless that country is Israel.

I'm sure that my feelings would be different if I were an Israeli or a jew. I'm not. I just see it as another in a long series of endless cycles of killing.

Sammy commented that if Mexicans were angry about Texas being taken from them, and lobbed mortar rounds into his area, he would fight. I understand that. What I would ask is if people like Sammy can put the shoe on the other foot and see it from the side of the Mexicans?

Nir Rosen is a jew. He sees the other side. I admire that. It's a very human quality.





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PostPosted: 01/06/09 10:26 am • # 10 

The bias is blatant hatred of Israel. The fact that he's a Jew has nothing to do with it.

Let's go back in time, did the Jews not live there? So you and he set a little date when colonialism after this date was bad?

I have questions about your and his view of the US but I won't ask them on this board.

Let's see, US bad because they invaded Iraq, but Iraq not bad because they invaded Kuwait? I have no clue? Isn't that a stronger country terrorizing a weaker one? Isn't that what you and he are saying is bad?

There ARE Pals and other Arabs living in Israel peacefully. Try that one again. Maybe you mean Israel won't allow them to flood in. Shit, I wouldn't either. Maybe we can separate the Pals who actually lived there before. The rest can go to their own homes.

Defending yourself vs terrorism. There's no point in us even trying to debate that. You think Israel was formed from terrorism. There was terrorism but that's not how or why she was formed. Hamas has sworn to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The actions they take against Israel ARE terrorism. Why do you and your authors not press the Pals to work through diplomatic means instead of choosing leaders like Hamas and Arafat? Wouldn't that be in their best interests? Someone needs to get all the countires in the area together and they need to figure which of the Pals had lived where and start working on getting them home, not work on destroying Israel and giving them that.

I remember when a black man attacked people in a subway. I forget his name. He used as an excuse black rage because of slavery. His family was never slaves. I think his dad was a doctor in the Bahamas. They never lived here. He freely came here from there. ( Certainly blacks in this country have reasons for anger. Even with Obama elected we have quite a way to go.) The same kind of mindset as his exists with the Pals. "We want our homeland back". Scuse me, your family never lived in the land that is now Israel. Go get the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, etc. Your anger at Israel is displaced anger.

"I was trying to be nice to you, but you come across as a thoughtless reactionary. I guess it's that Texas thang. "

Hardly thoughtless. Hmmm, the definitions I read of reactionary say a reactionary is a conservative or person opposed to liberalism. Bwahahahaha. Please remember when talking about that Texas thang that Bush is not a Texan, he's a yankee. That Texas thang made LBJ, who worked hard for and signed the civil rights bill. That Texas thang also made people like Ann Richards and Barbra Jordan.

Amazing isn't it. If a liberal supports Israel they become a reactionary. Narrow view. How sad.

BTW who is calling Palestinians terrorists? I call Hamas terrorists and I call the Pals who elected them suicidal.






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PostPosted: 01/06/09 10:30 am • # 11 
but in all other loosely-similar scenarios [meaning other wars that capture land and displace residents], it seems that eventually those displaced accept the "loss" and move on with their lives ~ the Pals have had numerous chances to do that, each time shot down [poor choice of words, I know] by the Pal "leadership" increasing demands

http://www.etzel.org.il/english/index.html



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PostPosted: 01/06/09 10:36 am • # 12 
It should be clarified that the blue in the previous post was written by sooz and the reference is Thack's homework lesson for her.


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PostPosted: 01/06/09 11:00 am • # 13 
The bias is blatant hatred of Israel. The fact that he's a Jew has nothing to do with it.

I see that as a lie. He is speaking to the common occurence between colonial type powers and the weak and subjugated.

Let's go back in time, did the Jews not live there? So you and he set a little date when colonialism after this date was bad?

Colonialism is always bad. You seem to be blinded by your own bias.

The jews lost Israel a couple thousand years ago.

I have questions about your and his view of the US but I won't ask them on this board.

I have a CIB and bled for my country. I served with men who died serving their country. Kiss my ass.

Let's see, US bad because they invaded Iraq, but Iraq not bad because they invaded Kuwait? I have no clue? Isn't that a stronger country terrorizing a weaker one? Isn't that what you and he are saying is bad?


I'm not a Kuwaiti. Neither are you. Kuwait used to be part of Iraq. Check the history. Kuwait was slant drilling Iraqi oil. Check the history. Aziz asked the US what it would do if one middle east nation invaded another and was told that we would do nothing. Check the history.

Colonialism is never good. That isn't the point. I think the article's point is more about terror committed by people who have forced others into situations in which they have little response to what is done to them except to use what are called terrorist means. They justify their own terrorist actions by saying the other guy is a terrorist.

There ARE Pals and other Arabs living in Israel peacefully. Try that one again. Maybe you mean Israel won't allow them to flood in. Shit, I wouldn't either. Maybe we can separate the Pals who actually lived there before. The rest can go to their own homes.

Maybe we can make them wear little green cresents on their chests. The bad ones we could just eliminate.

Defending yourself vs terrorism. There's no point in us even trying to debate that. You think Israel was formed from terrorism. There was terrorism but that's not how or why she was formed.

That is certainly how Israel was formed. Why do you call her 'she'?

Now she fights terror with more terror. You seem to be so biased that you are incapable of rational thought.

The actions they take against Israel ARE terrorism. Why do you and your authors not press the Pals to work through diplomatic means instead of choosing leaders like Hamas and Arafat?

I don't have authors, Sammy. Why didn't Menachim Begin, Yitzak Shamir, Irgun and a host of others do the same? You don't know anything about the history of Israel.

I have seen fathers and mothers hold their dying children. I didn't know what to say to them then and I don't know what to say to them now. Maybe you have some smart stuff to say to make them negotiate. Use your skills for peace.

I remember when a black man attacked people in a subway. I forget his name. He used as an excuse black rage because of slavery. His family was never slaves. I think his dad was a doctor in the Bahamas. They never lived here. He freely came here from there. ( Certainly blacks in this country have reasons for anger. Even with Obama elected we have quite a way to go.) The same kind of mindset as his exists with the Pals. "We want our homeland back". Scuse me, your family never lived in the land that is now Israel. Go get the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, etc. Your anger at Israel is displaced anger.

I don't see the logic in your attempt at it, but at least you try.

I can't see what Egypt, Syria and Jordan have to do with the Palestinians losing their homeland to the Israelis.

Hardly thoughtless. Hmmm, the definitions I read of reactionary say a reactionary is a conservative or person opposed to liberalism. Bwahahahaha. Please remember when talking about that Texas thang that Bush is not a Texan, he's a yankee. That Texas thang made LBJ, who worked hard for and signed the civil rights bill. That Texas thang also made people like Ann Richards and Barbra Jordan.

Thoughtless is my view of you, and you certainly aren't Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan or LBJ. Johnson was for racism before he was against it, btw.

Reactionary means reacting instead of thinking. That's what I see you doing.

























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PostPosted: 01/06/09 11:29 am • # 14 

Wow. lol. I call Israel a she just as many other people call countries she.

I do know the history of Israel. At least you do acknowledge Jews lived there. Now the only debate is at what point in history do we start.

Your author does hate Israel right? Isn't that what I said his bias is? So, why do you say it's a lie?

All I said is I have questions about your and his view of the US. I started another board to ask those questions. Why did you get so defensive? I know you're a vet, sooz mentioned it, I think in her welcome post to you. I did not question your patriotism or anything else. Jeez, grow some skin. I do not choose to kiss your ass and there was no reason for you to say that. You don't know my background so you might want to check your assumptions at the door. Your military service and/or mine have nothing to do with the discussion.

What does us not being Kuwaiti have to do with anything? Ah, so, it's ok for Arab countries to invade others and kill innocent civilians?

"Maybe we can make them wear little green cresents on their chests. The bad ones we could just eliminate." Another "final solution" reference eh? How totally pathetic.

Ah, but you say I'm the one posting without thinking.

You've decided I'm some rightwinger. Fine with me. I question your need to defend yourself against a rightwinger. I don't defend myself against them because I don't give a damn what rightwingers think about me. If you would stop the condescension and the assumptions, maybe we could actually debate. I know Johnson's history. I know Israel's and the Pals as much as you do.

I will easily debate with someone who is against the Israeli govt and their actions. I do however want to determine if it is strategic or a bias. Since you do not consider anyone else who treated the Pals badly relevant then I say yours is bias, you hate Israel and want them gone. If your concern was for the Pals you would be against anyone who mistreated them. You're only against Israel. Since you want her destroyed and I want her safe, we are polar opposites, or bipolar, if you will. I am manic and you are depressive.

Thack, we're in the United States of America. You have a right to your views. Your service does not need to be thrown in to prove to anyone your feelings about this country or your right to speak.



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PostPosted: 01/06/09 5:03 pm • # 15 
Wow. lol. I call Israel a she just as many other people call countries she.

I wondered about it. It doesn't make sense to me unless you are an Israeli. Different strokes I guess.

I do know the history of Israel. At least you do acknowledge Jews lived there. Now the only debate is at what point in history do we start.

I don't think you know much about the history of Israel. Say what you like, but Israel was born after tremendous labor pains that generally consisted of what you would call terrorism if it were done by someone other than the Israelis.

Your author does hate Israel right?

I don't know. You certainly can't tell from his writing. He does seem to think Israel uses that colonial type power to justify terrorism on the Palestinian population. I think he's spot on.

I think you oversimplify. The idea of 'Israel good', 'Palestine bad' is mindless and speaks to nothing.

All I said is I have questions about your and his view of the US...I did not question your patriotism or anything else. Jeez, grow some skin.

You questioned my view of my country and that is exactly the same as questioning my patriotism.
I want American to actually stand for what it says it does. My experience is that we don't do that. Inviting ourselves into other people's countries at the point of a gun isn't my idea of what America stands for in any way.

What does us not being Kuwaiti have to do with anything? Ah, so, it's ok for Arab countries to invade others and kill innocent civilians?

I think it's wrong to take someone else's property, drive them from it, and then kill them when they fight back. I think Iraq was overreacting when they invaded Kuwait, but you seem to think only the 'bad guys' overreact. Israel has killed many more Palestinian civilians than Iraq killed Kuwaitis. Why doesn't that bother you?

"Maybe we can make them wear little green cresents on their chests. The bad ones we could just eliminate." Another "final solution" reference eh? How totally pathetic.

That was my response to this post from you...

There ARE Pals and other Arabs living in Israel peacefully. Try that one again. Maybe you mean Israel won't allow them to flood in. Shit, I wouldn't either. Maybe we can separate the Pals who actually lived there before. The rest can go to their own homes.

You are the one who magically gets to separate them out. Green crescents would make it easier, wouldn't it? After you seperate the good Pals from the bad Pals, what do you do with them? Camps? There are quite a few camps already.

You've decided I'm some rightwinger.

No I don't. I don't know anything about your politics. I just know you are illogical and biased in your approach to the problem. You only see wrong from one direction. Whether it's from the right, left or center doesn't matter to me. I think you are blind and I think you are wrong.

I will easily debate with someone who is against the Israeli govt and their actions. I do however want to determine if it is strategic or a bias. Since you do not consider anyone else who treated the Pals badly relevant then I say yours is bias, you hate Israel and want them gone. If your concern was for the Pals you would be against anyone who mistreated them.

You still don't get it. I don't care about the Pals any more than I care about any group that has been mistreated and then made to suffer for trying to rise against that mistreatment. You ignore the pain inflicted on the Palestinians by having their land taken, and you blame them for the infliction of more pain by the people who took their land.

Blaming Egypt or Jordan for the plight of the Palestinians is stupid. What killing each has done is their own sin. We werent talking about them. We were talking about Israel and the Palestinians.

Your attempts at making the argument about moral relativity is silly. I never have seen a moral relativity argument that wasn't used in some political argument. It's a way of trying to deflect from the actual point of the argument.

We originally were talking about Israel and the Palestinians. I thought Israel hurt itself by it's actions. You think that killing is the answer. I think your's is a circular argument.

Thack, we're in the United States of America. You have a right to your views. Your service does not need to be thrown in to prove to anyone your feelings about this country or your right to speak.

Don't question my love of country. Don't substitute the actions of government for country. It's not the same thing.

I believe you questioned my patriotism. I don't care if you try to cover it.

I don't want any consideration for my service. It's mine and it's personal. I just refuse to let anyone question my love of country or my patriotism in an argument about Israel.

You did that, and you can try to dress it up any way you like. It is what it is.





































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PostPosted: 01/06/09 5:25 pm • # 16 

What a little wimpy you are. You and your author both talked about the US/Iraq the US/ Afghanistan. That made me wonder if you thought the attack on 9/11 was our fault because of our support of Israel. It made me wonder whether you thought it was wrong to pursue Osama. It made me "question your views". Please tell me how that questions your patriotism.

That is hilarious. When I stop laughing about that I'll read the rest of your posts for what it's worth. Too funny.



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PostPosted: 01/06/09 5:40 pm • # 17 

Oh , jeez , Thack, you've lost it totally. Anyone can read what I wrote and see if I questioned your patriotism. We were talking about colonialism. You and he mentioned specific things. You and he kept throwing in the US. I said I had questions about your views on the US. Most would realize I was talking about on those issues. You go ahead and think I questioned your patriotism. You're so damn thin skinned, you probably thought that just because I disagreed with you, before I dared to have questions. Using your service is a piss poor way to defend yourself. That's something to be proud of, not something to be used in a squabble on a community board on the internet.

You don't see the whole situation in the middle east. You just see Israel bad, Arabs good. I want a solution that keeps Israel. You don't. That's the disagreement. You say I think kill is the answer. No, that's why I expect Israel to defend herself from those trying to kill Israeli's. Yes, let's do separate govt from the people. If you don't like what the Israeli govt does talk about that. Don't act like all the Jews in Israel were terrorists. I have time after time made sure I say Hamas, they are the terrorists, not the Palestinian people. Some are. Soem mothers and fathers send their children on suicide missions. In my view you don't send your kids, go yourself.

I've stated my views. Misinterpret all you want. I don't care what you think. I'll put my knowledge of the history above yours any day.

And stop using your service as some little weapon because someone disagrees with you. It's worth a hell of a lot more than that. I now see you as a weak little know it all wannabe. You ain't all that.

To the person who told me insults only hurt my argument, I apologize. But, all this weenie is worthy of after his idiocy is insults. He needs to grow up.



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PostPosted: 01/07/09 7:28 am • # 18 
Sammy, you attacked me from the start, made your own mindless assumptions, and implied that I had some feelings about my country that you didn't seem to want to address in the thread.

You are so thin skinned that you left the group.

It is you who sees things simply. That has been the constant thread through all your posts.

I see fault on both sides. I think that Israel uses it's military power to commit terrorist acts against Palestinians. You think those Paletinians deserve it.

That's it in a nutshell.


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PostPosted: 01/07/09 8:50 am • # 19 

You're it in a nutshell, Thack. You attacked me from the start too. That happens when sometimes when two people disagree so vehemently and keep arguing. I stepped out in hopes others would post. They didn't so I'm back since you invited me so nicely.

I'm not even going to bother dealing with your stupid misrepresentations any more.

I did not IMPLY anything. I STATED that I had questions regarding your view of the US since you and your author kept throwing in the US/Afghanistan thing. I didn't ask them in this thread because they don't belong in this thread, so I made a new thread and asked them. Instead of answering at first (I haven't read if you added anything) you went on about Iraq. Sheesh.

You took the fact I had those questions and turned it into me attacking your patriotism. I think we can go the rest of our lives and never find a grosser example of thin skin than that.

At least it seems like we've come to the same conclusion finally. There's no point in us discussing the issue any more. lol.



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