I am not a conspiracy theorist and I do not want to over-react to this report ~ but I do believe that some terrorist groups do have people making and living "normal" lives in the US ~ and this makes me feel very queasy ~ ~ Sooz

i would be interested in seeing their proof, considering that Al Qaiada doesn't exist.

The spinmeisters are working overtime, methinks.

"What "electronic" means were used to contact whom, where, when, ..."

"allo... Pakistan 411... how may I help you today sir? I'm vedyvedy sorry sir... Osama Bin Laden cannot be found... I do have a number for al Qeada sir... would that be helpful?"

Something in my gut is telling me this wasn't terrorism.

ROFLMAO
Sid, you should be writing for 22 Minutes.

Sooz,

I have no doubts that there are some people (not necessarily Muslims) who are living apparently normal lives while engaged in activities which could be considered "terrorism." I would be shocked if there weren't, as we have been hearing from every cult, sect, religion, party, economic philosophy, racial, ethnic....you name it....faction of our society that can possibly be agitated and aggravated into a disgruntled, terrified, paranoid, persecuted, hate-filled splinter group imaginable.

I am a Democrat. I read the words of people, my fellow citizens, who have been properly indoctrinated to do so, that I oughtta be dead. I ought to be in jail. I ought to be denied my right of free speech. I don't deserve my Social Security. I don't worship the proper deity. I don't belong to the right church. I don't belong to the right political party. My best friend and ten year long companion's skin is not the same color as mine. We get glared at in the super market, in the doctor's offices. One of the doctor's nurses caused me to be switched to another doctor by refusing to respond to my requests for information. She refused to enter the examining room if my companion was with me, and glared at me when I was alone.

I'm an old woman. I live in South Carolina. I was born in Louisiana. I am an American citizen. My father served in the Air Force. One of my sons is a disabled veteran. I worked from the age of 16 years old until I was almost 60, and stopped only when two back injuries made me unhirable because I was uninsurable. I paid taxes and social security all of those years, even though I was a single mother of four children for most of twenty years. I paid for my parents and other people's parents Social Security. I didn't begrudge it or hate them for it.

But there are fellow citizens who have made it clear to me that they would like to see me without Social Security. They would like to see me starve. They have said so in so many words. "What do you know about working. You've probably been sitting on your ass your whole life sucking up the taxes of hard working people like me. You're a tax taker. You don't deserve to live."

So, do I think there are all kinds of people who are living among us, just like they were "normal" people, who would like to kill some of their fellow citizens who have done them no personal or specific harm. Of course I do.

I approve of universal health care, otherwise referred to as "socialized medicine" in this country by those who hate, loathe, fear, condemn, and are dementedly convinced that socialism and communism are one and the same. They used to refer to the USSR, with respect to "socialism" with such remarks as, "You know, one of those "S's" in USSR refers to "socialism!" Oh, my God! The horror. Did I not respond, "Yeah, and the "R" refers to "Republic!" Eat that one, sucker.

Because I point out the better life experiences that are indicated in poll after poll, year after year, that are to be had in countries with a socialist/capitalist mixture government, with universal health care and substantial welfare systems as well as substantial taxes, I am viewed as a communistic, pinko, un-American, blood sucking welfare bum who doesn't deserve the freedom and rights of American citizenship.

Sooz, I have heard it for years. Since in the 1970's and 1980's. It hasn't died down. The divisiveness and hatred has increased and intensified. More people have developed hatreds and those who were already hate filled have intensified and become gurus and "mentors" for the bewildered who are looking for someone to hate. "Hate crimes" were once so uncommon as to not require a special designation. Now they are discovering new groups that qualify for "hate" on an almost daily basis.

Did my father, or I, ever dream there would come a day when some damned fool would show up at a public gathering with a hand gun belted on and a rifle slung over his shoulder, much less that the damned fool would show up at a public gathering where the first black POTUS would be appearing? Are they insane? Hell yes. Is it an exhibition of freedom or rights? Hell no. It is a threat. It is, as Oskar points out, bullying. It is fear and danger walking on two legs, carring a nutcase.

A Muslim who hates the thought of going to a Muslim country to fight Muslims, particularly after he has been the receptacle for numberless military patients suffering from the affects of guilt, horror, disgust, truama, both physical and psychological, of killing Muslims, and destroying Muslim culture, is not surprising. It is so understandable it is almost laughable to think there is anything odd about the tragedy. The man was born in America. His culture is American. His religion is Muslim. A Christian born in a Muslim country might have the same feeling if he were required to listen to Muslim after Muslim confess to him their actions in destroying civilian women and children Christians during a war.

From the OP:

Almost identical post, but from a different source. Notice the difference in the effect when the word "He," is changed to the word "We." Which was factually accurate? Which is more likely to inflame a feeling that the shooter was anti-American? Which would be more likely to suggest that he was treated in a manner of being alien? If "WE" said it, that means "WE" talked about him as though he were different and not truly American, like the rest of us. If "HE" said it, then he was placing himself apart from us and rejecting us.

I agree with you, Sooz. I think the man lost it, for whatever reason. I don't think this man will be found innocent. It is impossible to be innocent for this kind of crime, even considering the stress Hassan might have found himself in. He was a professional. He should have known to reach out. There will probably be a lot of money spent on the issue, but whatever the outcome, the damage that is done is not just the thirteen dead and the thirty-some injured. The damage is what is being done by the press.

The damage is one more push toward the concentration camps of the Japanese in the 1940's. The damage is more and more will the drums beat to hate and distrust the Muslim Americans. It's okay about the fruitcakes who walk in the vicinity of the president with automatic weapons....hell give them grenade launchers so they can prove how free they are to carry their weapons as a well "regulated" militia. There are many thousands of innocent Muslims who will be smeared forever by the press that has grown to be almost exclusively on a level with tabloid journalism. The hate mongers cry from every doorway. The innocent have but to declare their innocence and their guilt is proven.

(And then we get to the "First they came for the Muslims. Then they came for the Mexicans. Then they came for the Latinos. Then they came for the Indians. Then they came for the atheists. Then they came for the Democrats. Then they came for...." And no one called out. We "forgot.")

Sorry for this to be so long. Things are complex. My apologies to those I have annoyed, and my thanks to those who have had the patience.

jd

I have a slightly "funny" terrorist article coming up next. I know it seems unlikely, but, so help me, this has got to take the cake.

Good post jd

i will continue to entertain serious reservations about anyone who is trying to make anything more of this than what it appears to be: an isolated incident by an individual who slipped over the edge. his personal details are totally irrelevant, imo, until such a case can be CLEARLY made.

what i meant, sooz, is that there are probably hundreds or thousands of people with Hassan's background that will never act as he did.

THIS is a primo example of my "distressed" ending comments in my post #9 ~ Sooz

good point Kathy .

and marginalization is a part of the process leading to a mass murder.

Sooz,

Oh, how very well I can identify with that sentiment. I hate what has hapened to me. I hate what I am seeing. I hate it so because I am seeing things I once loved and revered distorted and perverted into things I hate and despise. I am finding nothing clean, nothing decent, everything hypocritical, hopeless. Talk about "marginalized" and "alienated."


I am hardly in a position, or capable, of doing the "suicide, and take as many with you as you can." But I can actually view things through the eyes of those who do. I feel the emptiness when all hope of justice or peace is lost. Depression, oh, yes.

I just heard today on the news, the man's "dangerous attitude" consisted of "this I do not want to do. This is beyond what I can handle. This you must not ask of me. I cannot make what you ask of me right in my mind. This you should not ask of Muslims, to fight against other Muslims." That is his dangerous attitude. That is how he did not "reach out for help." That is how he was ignored. That is how what he asked repeatedly to be excused from doing because he could not endure it, he was , nonetheless commanded to do. They could have assigned him elsewhere. Or? Or? Or what?

All of the story is not in, and whatever of the story we hear will not be all of the story. But it is wrong to say the man did not reach out for help. He repeatedly asked not to be sent to fight against fellow Muslims. It would have been better to court martial him and imprison him than to permit him to remain free and command and demand that he do that which his conscience and his soul would not, could not, tolerate. Imagine that. A man with a personal conviction and emotional limitation asks not to be required to do that which would be unbearable to him, and that is considered a "dangerous attitude," an "unsatisfactory attitude " maybe even a "cowardly attitude?" But the powers that be could not permit that man the freedom of his conscience and the right to avoid the irresovable confllict.

Why didn't they listen?

jd

Ps: In looking ujp on Google incidences of military refusing to do certain services, I found that there were far more entries concerning Israeli soldiers refusing to perform certain duties which they considered unacceptable to their principles. I did not take the time to investigate, and it may be that all the entries refer to the same incident(s), but apparently Israeli Defense Forces is having some reluctant military as well.

Since the Muslims we are fighting are, for the most part, unofficial, not wearing uniforms, not under uniform military control, there are no numbers on Muslims who may refuse to set bombs or shoot civilians. Perhaps, if the Muslims of Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine are ever permitted to be free of occupation and form their own armies, for their own protection and dignity, we might learn how they might fight if it were anywhere near a fair fight.


jd

Why not a release as a conscientious objector? If reports are accurate this man was recommending that consideration by the DOD for people in his situation.

So let's assume for a moment that one of the acronym agencies has some kind of communication(s) between Hasan and whoever. Did you ever think that there may be very legitimate reasons for not disclosing the fact to big-mouth politicians who are desperate to score political points in any way they can?
Valerie Plame comes to mind.

Right, Oskar.

Now that imam and any others who were giving us clues concerning hot issues that might be in progress will know they are being watched and go deeper underground. I'm sure thousands of windows through which we might have viewed the climates of our enemies have now been closed.But that Congressman is running for the Governor's spot in his State and he's made headlines and made his pathetically obvious attempt to appear like an "on top of it" hero. No brains. No thought for the well being of the country. Serving self for short term gain.

Disgusting.

jd

IMO, there should be some sort of totally impartial tribunal (similar to FISA, perhaps?) to review such breaches of confidentiality and, depending on the seriousness of the violation (level of confidentiality and/or secrecy), decide on punishments that can go from a simple reprimand to serving time in prison.

ROBERTSON: That is the ultimate aim. And they talk about infidels and all this, but the truth is that's what the game is. So you are dealing with not a religion. You're dealing with a political system. And I think we should treat it as such and treat its adherences adherents as such as we would members of the Communist Party or members of some fascist group. Well, it's a tragedy. Our hearts go out to the families who suffered. But those in the Army should be held on account held to account for the fact they let this man loose.

Let him loose? Had he been detained? Pat's slipping into his senescence, I think. Losing his command of the language, and obviously unable to hold a coherent thought. His father was a US senator. Was he also an idiot? Does anyone here know?

Any religion that doesn't acknowledge the proper separation of church and state is, of course, a wannabe political system. It's not limited to Muslims, however.