written by a musician, who was eventually murdered by a nutter.

Macro: I don't think Bob was saying performers should not have political opinions. He was saying they should not express those opinions during shows where the audience, who have sometimes paid big bucks to get entertained, may not agree with them. For example, I like Toby Keith and would have paid to go see one of his concerts but, if he started his rah rah George Bush crap in the middle of it I would have been some upset.

If an entertainer wants to express political views they should do it either through their music or on their own time, not the time I've paid for.

Come to think of it, I feel that way too, Jim. I heard Bruce Springsteen at an Obama Rally, and he was full of political opinions and that didn't seem out of place in that venue. But if at a concert, that political opinionating would have made me uncomfortable for the crowd. I.e., I would have felt drawn into an argument that everyone in the crowd, of like mind and different, had agreed to hold in abeyance for the concert. If I want to go to a fight, I'll go somewhere that a fight is being put on.

Now, re the Dixie Chicks, since I wasn't there, their opinionating didn't offend me. The subsequent attempted boycott of their music, the discs being run over by bulldozers, the pretended and over-hyped outrage at them, etc., made them more attractive, made me take notice of them and appreciate their musicianship, apart from their politics. The country-western music culture has always been pretty far right-wing and overtly political. It's hypocritical of it to pretend outrage when someone gets political in a way they don't like. Screw Merle, up with the Chicks!

Thank you Jim... someone finally understood MY point. They can say anything they want, on their time.. not on my expensive ticket time. That is why the Dixie Chicks got wasted. They did it in a concert, in a foreign country... and that ticked off their fans, like it or not.

On the recording vrs. popularity.. Macro.. I had dinner the other night with a good friend, Tommy Quon.. he is the agent & manager for Vanilla Ice (Ice Ice Baby.. ).. trust me, there is a reason that he is not putting out records.. because they can not fine a producer that will front the money... cause no one thinks they will sell. He is doing gigs for less than $5,000... He was on TMZ the other night, showing him as a "celebrity guest" bartender! There generally is a reason that they are not putting out records..

jim- i am sorry that i wasn't clear- but i meant it more generally. i think that a performer, if he has strong feelings, has not only the right to express them- but the responsibility. if the audience doesn't like it, tough s*&t. do i really feel that way? yes i do.

when Peter Gabriel started talking about Steven Biko at his shows, MILLIONS of people tuned into his struggle. he made a difference. did it piss off some of his audience? i am sure it did.

i went to a concert in San Diego one night. one of my favourite artists from England was there, and he did nothing other than complain about the low turnout and get steadily drunk. was i happy about that? yes. in fact i was. it showed me a completely different side of that artist, and made me more interested in him. did it piss some of his audience off? i doubt it. but there were less than 10 of us there. and we were all laughing at Mr. Grumpy.

musicians are not museums- at least the good ones aren't. if you want an archive, rent a video and stay home. the sound will be better anyway.

i am not saying that the audience has no right to expect value for their entertainment dollar. but to expect a performer to be unaffected by world events (which is precisely what the uproar about the DCs is about) strikes me as absurd.

one last thing- if you don't like Toby Keith's politics, don't buy his records and go see his shows. i don't. and if you do, you will have no problem with him waiving the pom poms for Bush.

i understood YOUR point just fine, Bobs- i just happen to fervently disagree with it. if a musician is not changing, i would rather just stay home. i KNOW that puts me in the minority. i have already stated that. i am good with that. but then again, i am not going to EVER buy an "expensive ticket" for anyone other than Tom Waits. not my thing.

On the recording vrs. popularity.. Macro.. I had dinner the other night with a good friend, Tommy Quon.. he is the agent & manager for Vanilla Ice (Ice Ice Baby.. )..

i see, so you are comparing a group of musicians whose last record sold over 2M copies and won 5 grammies with a lip synching hack like Vanilla Ice? never mind......
for the record, i can't see why he ever got popular in the first place.

i have seen live footage of that concert. the quip in question took all of 15 seconds, and the audience CHEERED. nobody stomped out- the comments seemed to go over well. the negative reaction came not from the audience, but from the folks back home. and were it not for the fact that the footage was captured and SENT back home, nobody would have been the wiser.

so, the pissing the audience off argument is sort of a red herring in this case. it was not part of their standard speil.

btw- i think this song did more to piss off their old audience than a 15 word quip on some foreign stage. she is not only unapologetic, she is openly defiant.

Forgive, sounds good
Forget, I'm not sure I could
They say time heals everything
But I'm still waiting

I'm through with doubt
There's nothing left for me to figure out
I've paid a price
And I'll keep paying

I'm not ready to make nice
I'm not ready to back down
I'm still mad as hell and
I don't have time to go round and round and round
It's too late to make it right
I probably wouldn't if I could
'Cause I'm mad as hell
Can't bring myself to do what it is you think I should

I know you said
Can't you just get over it
It turned my whole world around
And I kind of like it

I made my bed and I sleep like a baby
With no regrets and I don't mind sayin'
It's a sad sad story when a mother will teach her
Daughter that she ought to hate a perfect stranger
And how in the world can the words that I said
Send somebody so over the edge
That they'd write me a letter
Sayin' that I better shut up and sing
Or my life will be over

I'm not ready to make nice
I'm not ready to back down
I'm still mad as hell and
I don't have time to go round and round and round
It's too late to make it right
I probably wouldn't if I could
'Cause I'm mad as hell
Can't bring myself to do what it is you think I should

I'm not ready to make nice
I'm not ready to back down
I'm still mad as hell and
I don't have time to go round and round and round
It's too late to make it right
I probably wouldn't if I could
'Cause I'm mad as hell
Can't bring myself to do what it is you think I should

Forgive, sounds good
Forget, I'm not sure I could
They say time heals everything
But I'm still waiting

surfing around and found this. it has been almost a year since it came out, so it may not mean anything:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhd9JM19758

their previous album was 4 years in the making, so 2010 would make sense for the new release.

btw- i think this song did more to piss off their old audience than a 15 word quip on some foreign stage. she is not only unapologetic, she is openly defiant.

I wonder how much effect the comment really did have on their careers. It seems to me a lot of the supposed backlash against them was somewhat overblown. Heck, even the crushing of their CD's was good for them since folks had to go buy the CD in order to crush it. What seemed to get forgotten was that their opinion got a lot of support from a lot of people and, I expect, whatever they lost in the U.S., they made up for in other parts of the world. I'm not even sure their reputation was really damaged in the U.S. In one section Wikipedia reports that they lost about half their concert audience in States but then reports that, at their first stop in North Carolina after the controversy started, was a sell-out. Not only did they get a lot of free publicity out of it, as you pointed out they also got a hit record and a "me victim" movie.

Still, I'd much prefer stars kept their politics to themselves when they're on my dime. The exception, of course, are those concerts where they are expected to be political. If Joannie Mitchell, for example, had to keep politics out of her concerts she'd be able to tag team with the Dalai lama and use the silence for a meditation session.

it's Joni, jim. and here is my point:

i think it is important for everyone interested in this subject to remember the context. NM's quip came TEN DAYS before the US invaded Iraq. she was the first mainstream artist to openly question the decision of the Bush administration insodoing. and this was at the peak of her career- they had sung the star spangled banner at the super bowl less than two months previous. they were America's darlings. for her to open her mouth at that moment was a very powerful move that reached a huge number of people.

it would also be well to remember that she didn't sit there and lecture her audience on politics for two hours. it was one remark, and in no way detracted from the performance, unless you are the sort of person that thinks that a performer should do nothing other than play.

in addition, in their tours in 2006 and 2007, there were no speeches or lectures at any of the shows, and almost no political banter.

and finally, if there were, it would hardly be unexpected or inexcusible. if you don't want such banter, go to a Toby Keith concert.

i have openly admitted that, sooz. i am bored to tears watching Carlos Santana doing the same f(*king guitar solo he did 20 years ago. that man IS a museum. and his fans seem to love it.

but this is the thing- that quip was a transforming moment for Maines. she will never be the same person again. her audience had better get used to it, or find another more apolitical artist.

it's Joni, jim. and here is my point

It's Joanie in the Queen's English, macro

For such a short little quip, macro, it had a pretty wide reaching effect and, in fact, wound up being reported world-wide. I can see Americans (or even Brits considering their guys were gearing up for Iraq as well) who attended the concert getting upset over it. Again, people went to the concert for entertainment not for politics.

I dunno. I think the idea that performers should not express political opinions from the stage, because they're being paid to play and play only is a little unrealistic. If you consider it a work ethic thing, then you have to consider the other things that performers have done down through the history of music. To express a political opinion off the cuff in a few seconds is small peanuts. Shannon Hoon (sp?) from Blind Melon actually urinated on the audience. Numerous artists have exposed themselves, or shown up so intoxicated they could barely play, or in Jim Morrison's case, often didn't show up at all and let his band cover for him.

If the objection is that the dixie chicks inappropriately took advantage of their position in society to propagate their political beliefs....well...I guess i have a problem with that too. Their audience is made up of adults, who can pick and choose whether or not to believe what they are told. They are not in a position of direct power or trust over someone, like a therapist, priest or teacher. I don't see a moral reason they shouldn't be allowed to express their beliefs.

Not only that, but music, performance, and art of any kind is a form of communication. So, one could argue, you attend a concert in order to hear the message of the artists, whatever it is. Some days you may like that message more than others, but to vet the message ahead of time, to force it through a filter of appropriateness or predictability, is to defeat the purpose of art. If you don't like or agree with the message this time, then don't go next time, but don't expect artists to preapprove their message, media, opinions or creativity, or to conform to their fans or anyone elses expectations of them.

"oh brave new world, that has such people in it...." William Shakespeare

quite true. and i have never seen the logic in claiming that a personal remark aimed at the president is somehow an act of treason.

i always assumed that it helped their careers. but i don't follow the band closely.

let me ask you point blank, jim- DID YOU FIND THE COMMENT ENTERTAINING? i did. i would have paid JUST to hear that comment, and see the reaction.

macro
I am somewaht involved in this discussion and I do agree with macro, and I to, would have paid just to hear the comments...

let me ask you point blank, jim- DID YOU FIND THE COMMENT ENTERTAINING? i did. i would have paid JUST to hear that comment, and see the reaction.

Hell yeah! But that was only because I agreed with her. In fact, I didn't think she went far enough. I wasn't just embarassed that he came from Texas, I was embarassed for the U.S. that he had been elected at all. Still, if I didn't agree I would have been pretty pissed at financially supporting someone with that view.

i celebrate your freedom of speech, Bobs.

do you feel the same way about Lincoln, who was approximately as accomplished as Obama when he took office?

jim- no further questions.

The only thing they had in common was they were Senators from Illinois.. major difference.. Abe was honest... on the other hand.. Obama would not know the truth if it smacked him in the face. Or do you really believe that he never heard his ministers rants (just one of many examples.. read his book for more!)?

Can you provide any evidence that there were more than just the 2 sermons all the "clips" have been taken from?

Oh yeah, and the 2 sermons the clips were taken from, Obama was not in attendance.

And if you take what he said in its full context, a lot of what he said is true!