Where did you get two sermons.. he was selling an entire DVD with that crap on it, and he did not make any excuses. Only Obama did.. go to this site to see ABC's NOT FOX news report on it! .. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Democrati ... 788&page=1

An ABC News review of dozens of Rev. Wright's sermons, offered for sale by the church, found repeated denunciations of the U.S. based on what he described as his reading of the Gospels and the treatment of black Americans.

Anyone that believes Obama did not have a clue.. well, doesn't have a clue!

The only thing they had in common was they were Senators from Illinois..

not true. they were both JUNIOR senators from illinois, their previous office was the legislature. they both entered office in times of turmoil. they neither had foreign policy experience. they both are tall and thin. they are both gifted orators. they were both known for their ability to reach across party lines. they both entered the presidential office in times of great turmoil. race was an important issue for both men.

do you want me to go on?

major difference.. Abe was honest... on the other hand.. Obama would not know the truth if it smacked him in the face.

horsefeathers. he is as honest as the next chap, and about 100x as honest as his predacessor, imo.

and he never said that he never heard his minister say stupid things. he said the opposite. he said that he didn't hear the specific comments that his minister was widely criticized for.

candidly, i think most of what Wright said was RIGHT, so i think throwing him under a bus was a mistake. and i think Obama believes that too. but you don't get elected making such admissions. perhaps it is no longer the case that such candor is electable. i don't think i will be running for president any time soon.

PS- you didn't mention Obama's honesty in your previous quip- ONLY his experience. so, i gather from your reply that you don't actually think his experence is all that relevant to his election, since it was not in the case of Lincoln.

Just for the fun of it once I calculated out the likely number of minutes Wright would have preached throughout his career to put into context the time he said something contentious - bearing in mind that the rightwing had scrutinized everything he said looking for something - anything - to tar him with. Based on a single one hour sermon a week over his career he preached something like 78.000 minutes of which they could find less than fifteen seconds objectionable.

The only thing they had in common was they were Senators from Illinois.. major difference.. Abe was honest... on the other hand.. Obama would not know the truth if it smacked him in the face. Or do you really believe that he never heard his ministers rants (just one of many examples.. read his book for more!)?

One of the things I do like about Obama is that he has been honest. There have been some things he has changed his mind on as practicality has interfered with campaign rhetoric but, as far as I know, he has never tried to hide those changes, produce some kind of convoluted logic to show how the changes really are in compliance with what he said or to blame somebody else for his actions. He's been straight forward, said he changed his mind and explained why. That's the kind of refreshing honesty that is so often lacking in political circles. Further, if Bush had shown that kind of honesty, I'm willing to bet the pardons he granted would have been for Rove and Cheney rather than Scooter Libby.

The last thing any country needs is a leader who is locked into some kind of ideological or "purity" program where real life exingencies, compromise and the welfare of the country take second place.

I also think that, despite his lack of experience, Obama has accomplished quite a bit in his ten months in office. People of other ideological persuasions may not agree with some of the things he has done but he has got the stimulus package through and it is starting to show some limited effect, he has health care reform well on the way to completion and he has certainly managed to greatly improve the United States' reputation and influence in world affairs.

Why is it that only 2 sermons are used in every article about the Rev Wright? Why have there not been "dozens" of examples cited?

And I don't remember me saying Obama didn't have a clue. Rev Wright is one man. Do you agree with everything your preacher says? I know I never did and to this day don't. I have had conversations with mine about the things that we didn't agree on. But a lot that I did. And the preacher isn't the church, the members are.

I have previously read the entire sermons from other souroces.

As Macro posted:


So say I.

jd

And I don't remember me saying Obama didn't have a clue. Rev Wright is one man. Do you agree with everything your preacher says? I know I never did and to this day don't. I have had conversations with mine about the things that we didn't agree on. But a lot that I did. And the preacher isn't the church, the members are.

What's more, when you take the two comments that are most used to denounce him in context I think anybody would be hard put to disagree with what he said.

Wright is very much in the mold of the old-time "fire and brimstone" preachers, not uncommon in his generation ~ a very close friend and neighbor is a smart and savvy black woman who attended a few services at Wright's church because the church has an excellent reputation for doing "good works" [housing and feeding those in need] in the community ~ she was very uncomfortable with Wright's "style" and never went back ~ for her, Wright was a "throwback" to the bad ol' days ~ interestingly, we see some of the same "style" in many of today's fundamentalist preachers ~

I sympathize with your friend, Sooz. Because she is new here, last Sunday April and I went searching for a new church to attend in her area and wound-up going to the United Church down the street from her. What a difference from the type of stuff the so-called "Christians" on the other board postulate! When we went in there was a large screen projector announcing how all were welcome regardless of race, creed, etc, or "sexual orientation". The next message was a thank you to the First Nations who had donated the land the church was built on and a celebration of their ancient attachment to "The Creator." The whole service was uplifting and positive. Not once was my mortal soul condemned to hell for some little transgression. Most of the service was conducted by members of the congregation instead of the minister and, at one really cool point, various members of the audience came forward and placed on a table some little memento to mark a time when they felt God was at work in their lives. I forget exactly what was put on the table but it would be things as simple as a tea cup or running shoe. It was a really beautiful and moving service.

Later, just out of curiousity we went to a huge magnificent Buddist Temple composed of several very unique buildings. It was open to all and was extremely beautiful but the one thing that struck me was the peace and serenity on the faces of those who were there worshiping. Somehow I just cannot picture the kind of God these so-called "Christians" worship who would condemn people like that simply because they didn't worship exactly the way they say.

Jim, that's one big difference beetween the United Church of Christ and the stereotype Baptist or Assembly of God or other fundamentalist type church. Speaking for the people in my congregation, we don't spend any time worrying about avoiding Hell. We don't demand that members agree with each other about much of anything, including theology. We do have in common a strong wish to lift people up in this life, rather than the next. I've been a member going on 30 years, and nobody has ever insulted my ingtelligence by trying to convince me that I'm part of some great cosmic war between invisible evil spirits and a temperamental Grandfather in the sky.

In the other type of church, very often some man (never a woman), who imagines he has been called by God, starts preaching somewhere and attracts enough people to form a church. Itt grows or doesn't, but it is always HIS CHURCH, and in becomking a member you accept his theology. In the UCC, it's bottom up organization. We hire the pastor, after interviewing a number of candidates. He or she serves at our pleasure. Very unlike, for example, the Catholic hierarchy. Very un-authoritarian.

Remember when Jerry Falwell declared that SpongeBob Squarepants was gay? The UCC national office put out a photoshopped picture of the UCC's president, sitting across his desk from Spongebob, and the caption is, "Spongebob, whoever you are, wherever you are on your life's journey, you are welcome here." I love it.

Re Wright, and Obama's reaction to him, in the UCC the pastor's opinion is one among many. He's not even what you would call first among equals. It's not like the Catholic church, where membership implies agreement with the priest, bishop, archbishop, cardinal and Pope about politics and every small detail of theology. A member can very well take part in the church's mission while believing the pastor is misguided and wrong in his opinions. Because it ain't about the preacher.

I said NOTHING about the Rev's rants, other than he made a lot more than one or two of them (ABC news supports that theory)... I did not comment on the Rev being correct, or fire & brimstone... I did NOT comment on the content or validity of the Rev's comments, all I stated was that Obama said he never heard them... I do not believe that for a moment. This is the man Obama called his mentor... that he was selling DVDs in the lobby meant that either Obama is a space cadet or a liar... I took a leap at liar.. you guys went everywhere but there. Now I am sure you will dispute that Obama stated he never heard them... don't care, I heard him say it... and I heard him try to cover his butt afterwords.. He had enough shady characters show up in his life that he should have been compared to Sinatra, not Lincoln.. IMHO.

Macro... look up facetious in the dictionary... when I spoke of Lincoln and Obama... sorry, 140 years of history makes the relevance of similarities meaningless. I was a different world.. do you realize how many people (including Kennedy) have been matched to Lincoln!

i could not care less how many people have been matched to Lincoln, and you still haven't answered the question, Bobs. let me try again:

since Obama and Lincoln had approximately the same experience level entering office, are you now saying that experience is not really relevant?

i went to the trouble of listening to that entire sermon- the tedious hour of it. after doing so, i can see where the guy was coming from. is it the most elegant thing ever said? no. is it outrageous? not really. it is pretty milquetoast actually. compared to other figures in the black civil rights/ power movement, it is pretty mundane actually. but whatever. people get bent out of shape about Palin too.

I said NOTHING about the Rev's rants, other than he made a lot more than one or two of them (ABC news supports that theory)...

ABC reporting something supports that theory? Great! I don't take anyone's word for anything unless they back it up with proof. ABC, Fox, msnbc or you. No disrespect meant there.

I did NOT comment on the content or validity of the Rev's comments, all I stated was that Obama said he never heard them...

I will have to take the mans word for it unless someone can "prove" he did hear them. I am sure that Obama has heard the Rev say some pretty outragious and questionable things, but I doubt he heard anything like what has been reported in, once again, those 2 sermons.

that he was selling DVDs in the lobby meant that either Obama is a space cadet or a liar... I took a leap at liar

Again, have you listened to the DVD's? Exactly what is on the DVD's? And you can call him whatever you want, doesn't make it the truth, just your opinion, which you certainly have a right too.

He had enough shady characters show up in his life that he should have been compared to Sinatra, not Lincoln.. IMHO.

Such as??

Macro.. OK, I will answer the question... I believe the experience is relevant, I do not believe the Obama had sufficient experience, neither, in my opinion did Lincoln... I also do not believe that getting us through the war made Lincoln a great president. I believe that Lincoln's poverty upbringing and his striving for success made him a much different man than Obama... it was a different time, a different country.. and there is no comparison, in my opinion, between the two men.

Jim, you and I see the Obama presidency in a different light, but I assume that we also saw the Bush presidency in much different ways.

Monster.. no comment required... you ask questions that I can not possibly answer, I know there are dozens of these sermons, I have listened to 8 - 10 myself.. why only 2 are used.. news people are lazy cretins, and I will not answer for them... want an answer, look it up.. it is on the web..

Monster.. no comment required... you ask questions that I can not possibly answer, I know there are dozens of these sermons, I have listened to 8 - 10 myself.. why only 2 are used.. news people are lazy cretins, and I will not answer for them... want an answer, look it up.. it is on the web..

I have tried to find other sermons that you speak of and can't find a single one that is negative in the ways you have asserted. It would seem to me that at least Fox would have more on him and they don't. So, for the 8-10 that you have listened to and not been able to site anything in your original assertion leads me to believe that you have no idea what you are talking about and only 2 sermons ARE being used. No disrespect but I don't believe what you say has any truth to it.

And your "no comment required" supports my comments....lol

I did not call you a liar. You used ABC as your source but even they didn't say they found issues in all of the sermons. Just that , and I quote, "An ABC News review of dozens of Rev. Wright's sermons, offered for sale by the church, found repeated denunciations of the U.S. based on what he described as his reading of the Gospels and the treatment of black Americans ." You twisted the words to suit your argument.

And then you make such a statement as : "Anyone that believes Obama did not have a clue.. well, doesn't have a clue!" but you take offense to what I said?

If this one debate is enough for you to take your ball and go home, maybe you should do just that.

Sorry macro, but I have to disagree with you on bobspics. I thought he was an honorable and intelligent person, but I find him to be lacking at best. Good bye bobspics.

I am sorry but I have to disagree. The statement says they reviewed dozens of his sermons, but there is no mention of which sermons they found the reapeated denunciations in. To say they did is pure conjecture and holds no weight. I am not defending the man, but let's be clear on this argument. Why is it no other sermons are used to prove the point of what the Rev has preached? It is the same spin crap that we here all the time.

He was quite forceful and sure of himself when he made his initial assertion that the Rev had more than those 2 speeches where he denounced the US, and used "ABC's review" as his source. He also claimed to have heard 8-10 of the Rev's sermons. To prove his point, why couldn't he name any of the other sermons that the Rev preached in such a manner or what he had said?

I am sorry if you feel I was the one to have such a harsh judgement. I don't feel I did. I meant no disrespect and said so.

I too was glad to see him here expressing another point of view. I was very impressed with the man and have been going to his sight and looking at all of his photo work. And I also enjoyed his perspective on a lot of the subjects in this group. I did not mean to start a fight or make him leave.

But if that one interaction is enough for him to leave.....

Since Monster NEEDs more proof (by the way, this took me exactly 4 minutes to find on Utube)... and, yes it is a FOX clip... but you will note from the changes in outfits and backgrounds, there are pieces of 15 different sermons...


Link repeated in the next messaage, but I am indeed sure that you will find fault with this also, as you have your mind made up, but provide nothing but your opinion.. which, obviously holds more water than mine...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=617eK2XIaLk

I think this link will work... the other was to much to "cut & paste"... and I would not want you to miss this Monster.. Oh, it is an Alan Combs video, he was the liberal on the show...