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PostPosted: 11/21/09 4:12 pm • # 1 
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This thread is a spin-off from the "Dangerous Billboards" thread ~

I believe any federal government does have a "social contract" with its public ~ we pay our taxes and those monies [along with the power of a federal government when needed] should be used to benefit and to aid us when we need the help ~ aside from our personal moral responsibilities as humans, and speaking as an American, I believe, deeply, that our Constitution created that contract, specificially with the "provide for the general welfare" clause ~ I readily admit that several of our "social entitlements", like welfare, are out of control and need heavy-duty reining in of the rampant fraud ~ while I believe that helping our fellow citizens in times of need is a moral responsibility, I do not support "welfare" as a career choice ~ but I do want our government to provide basic human needs for those who cannot provide those needs for themselves ~ food, shelter, health care ~ it hurts deeply to think of babies and elderly going to bed hungry, and cold. and ill in our country of abundant comfort and plenty ~ and in my own mind we must care for those who cannot care for themselves ~ sadly, some sociopaths will always look for a way to beat the system ~ but we cannot and must not allow those sociopaths to diminish or abolish help for those in need ~

I hear people demanding lower taxes ~ trust me, I am not asking for my taxes to be raised ~ but I understand that the US is in the bottom five for lowest taxes amongst the [I think] 30 highest industrialized nations in the world ~ and that we could easily raise taxes to significantly cut the deficit AND pay for health care reform while remaining in the bottom 10 for lowest taxes ~ we also generally have higher salaries and wages than many other nations ~ but an inordinately large percentage of our taxes pays for defense and our military ~ while I recognize the vital importance of a strong national defense and a strong military, I don't believe that has to or should come at the expense of providing basic human needs to those in need ~ given a choice, I vote for helping people instead of sending them off to war ~

Sooz



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PostPosted: 11/21/09 8:07 pm • # 2 
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sooz, isn't the social contract is a contract between people, not so much between citizens and government? Government is one of the ways the contract gets carried out, but not the only way. I'll write more about it earlier.


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PostPosted: 11/22/09 2:15 am • # 3 
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I think you're both right.

I think the government is the embodiment of the social contract between people. Or should be. the government should not be a separate entity with it's own interests. It should be representitive of the needs and desires of the people, and the contract between them to work for common goals, like public education and health care, caring for the poorest and neediest, common defense, etc.


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PostPosted: 11/22/09 4:54 am • # 4 
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grampatom wrote:
sooz, isn't the social contract is a contract between people, not so much between citizens and government? Government is one of the ways the contract gets carried out, but not the only way. I'll write more about it earlier.

i don't believe so. i believe the conception of social contract is between a people and their government- that they will GIVE UP certain rights as citizens (namely, the right to 100% of their money, the right to their property under certain circumstances, etc) in order to EMPOWER the government to work for them. in turn, the government is supposed to look after the interests of the citizens.

this idea is NOT DEAD, but it has been under attack and significantly eroded over the last six decades.


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PostPosted: 11/22/09 5:04 am • # 5 

Gramps - Writing about something earlier sounds like a neat time travel trick. LOL!!!!

We need definitions...

This is from wikipedia.

'Social contract' describes a broad class of theories that try to explain the ways in which people form states and/or maintain social order. The notion of the social contract implies that the people give up some rights to a government or other authority in order to receive or maintain social order through the rule of law. It can also be thought of as an agreement by the governed on a set of rules by which they are governed.

Social contract theory formed a central pillar in the historically important notion that legitimate state authority must be derived from the consent of the governed. The starting point for most of these theories is a heuristic examination of the human condition absent from any structured social order, usually termed the "state of nature". In this condition, an individual's actions are bound only by his or her personal power, constrained by conscience. From this common starting point, the various proponents of social contract theory attempt to explain, in different ways, why it is in an individual's rational self-interest to voluntarily give up the freedom one has in the state of nature in order to obtain the benefits of political order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

The obvious answer to this question is YES because we have to obey the laws of the land.



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PostPosted: 11/23/09 6:22 am • # 6 
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Some of the terminology doesn't quite fit into my thinking yet. Somehow, it seems to me that the contract needs to be broadened. Not only by what the government will do for the less fortunate citizens, but what is the government's (which is really the citizens, is it not?) duty to business and industry?


What is the government's duty to religious entities? (Thinking...tax exempt....mega churches....not hospitals...not medical care....exclude non-members...pressure politically....interfere internationally....provoke, accuse, hype, judge, condemn)


What are the limits or controls the citizens (the government) may have on economic subsidies, taxation, foreign aid, acts of war? (Can citizens demand stop of invasion when citizens opposed to rationale and cost to nation? Citizens have no say in weapons and monies used for military purposes by other, recipient, governments to commit internationally illegal war crimes. Citizens shut out of representation by lobbies, corporate, religious, ethnic...)

If we agree to reasonable taxation, for the sake of the whole, then where and when do we have a say as to where that money goes?

Sort of like "crossing the Rubicon," it seems that once the citizens' representatives were permitted to knuckle under to a President on a highly suspected illegal war, and much rejected occupation and a much damaging economic cost, it seems like we have given up any rights we might have had to demand representation. We gave them up by the majority of our citizens buying into the hype and the fear, relinquishing their rights in exchange for protection from the "boogie man." In the process, we have truly created the "boogie-men," and now we can be ever more driven by fear.

I have no love of a Welfare State, either, but I do not have the vapors over the possibilities of a combination socialistic/capitalistic form of government. Other Nations have such systems, and we not only work with them, we very often subsidize them. I believe there are several nations, friends of ours, that have "socializedm" nationalized airlines, ground transportation, hospitals, medicine, school, universities, but they maintain, as well, private practicing doctors, taxi cabs, bus tours, chartered boats and planes, schools, universities, etc. etc.

I know you can't hear emotion or see my face when you are reading the words on the screen. So, what I am about to say next is to be read while picturing in your mind a cartoonized old lady (make her as ridiculous looking as you can...it will fit) who has her hands tangled in her hair. Her eyes appear to be spinning spirals. Her nostrils are flared. Foam is flecking her wide opened mouth. And she is screaming


"Will somebody kindly tell me when in the hell the government became an entity that was not of, by and for the people? And would someone kindly tell me when we "hate" the government, want it destroyed, but love the constitution, doesn't that mean we hate and want to destroy ourselves???? Would someone kindly tell me which of the 300,000,000 American citizens have decided that only a portion of them are "real" Americans???? And can we put halos on them or something, so I will know who it is who is making the decisions in our country."

Thank you.
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PostPosted: 11/24/09 4:05 am • # 7 
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why it is in an individual's rational self-interest to voluntarily give up the freedom one has in the state of nature in order to obtain the benefits of political order.


If we all chose to exist in our "natural" ( in the buff) state of being in public today, how many consequences would we be subject to? The human species has managed to convince themselves to give up a very basic "natural state", but what "political order" does that serve, I wonder? LMAO I'm not sure how voluntary it is to forsake the state of nature at this point.

Is political order slave to social order, or the other way around? The points at which they align are random, really.





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PostPosted: 11/24/09 4:56 am • # 8 
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"Will somebody kindly tell me when in the hell the government became an entity that was not of, by and for the people? And would someone kindly tell me when we "hate" the government, want it destroyed, but love the constitution, doesn't that mean we hate and want to destroy ourselves???? Would someone kindly tell me which of the 300,000,000 American citizens have decided that only a portion of them are "real" Americans???? And can we put halos on them or something, so I will know who it is who is making the decisions in our country."

I think there is a social contract between the government and the people simply because, once elected, the government becomes a very powerful seperate entity from the people. It has to be that way because the specific interests of individuals - even large groups of individuals - may not coincide with the interests of other groups. It is up to government to ballance those interests and the contract they have with the people is to exercise it's power in such a way that it does not do undue harm to any specific segment of society.

In answer to your question about when government became an entity not of, by and for the people, it came about with the invention of political parties. With their invention, governing for the benefit of the governed became secondary to attempting to acquire the power to govern. The problem isn't unique to the U.S. - it happens in almost all democratic societies - but right now it's pretty visible in the U.S. The response of the Republican Party and it's hangers-on to the health care debate is a prime example. The need for and value of healthcare reform is currently of very little interest to the Republicans. Their goal is to defeat the Democrats regardless of the impact on American society. Hence the invention of imagined boogymen, outright lies and whipping up furor over unrelated and improbable threats to consitutional rights.

Democrats and their followers aren't a lot better. All the accusations about "Bush Lied", etc. had the same goal and effect.


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