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 Offline macroscopic
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 4:49 am • # 1 
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i posted this for Sammy.

i think she has staying power, for reasons discussed in this article:

http://edition.cnn.com/20....album.review/index.html

but i am troubled somewhat by her fame for the following reason- there are a lot of other talented people out there- more talented than Susan- that will never get that 15 minutes. it has nothing to do with looks for them. it has to do with exposure. it is the same sort of fame that game show contestants get- a cultish sort of one dimensional fame that appeals to a certain segment of public that longs for popular affection but are less than artistically brilliant.

candidly, i think fame is a unhelpful social construct. it proposes that the Susan Boyles, or the Steve Millers, or the Janet Jacksons are any different than the rest of us- that they are so special that we should model our lives to be more like them. but they really aren't much different- they have the same foibles, faults and failures as the rest of us. sometimes they have even more. they are just luckier.


Last edited by macroscopic on 11/23/09 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Offline sooz06
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 6:15 am • # 2 
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Thanks, Mac ~ Image

I agree that part of Susan's appeal is her "Cinderella" story ~ and we certainly have seen both the positive AND the negative effects that story has had on Susan herself ~ I think the "social construct" you mention will make a great discussion ~ and, with your permission, I'd like to move this thread to General ~

Sooz
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FeatheredFish
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 6:43 am • # 3 
I am not only unconvinced by the Susan Boyle story I regard it as simple cynical exploitation of a troubled individual for commercial gain.
It's in essence, Jerry Springer the musical and it makes me recoil in disgust.

She has an ability to sing, she's not exceptional, just marketed as the frumpy chick who surprisingly does not conform to the plastic expectations built up of the (primarily female), fame game. The Simon Cowells of this world will just squeeze every last buck they can out of her before she finally snaps under the strain. In the meantime they'll be coaching the next cash cow.

Don't buy the hype, it hurts people.
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 Offline macroscopic
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 7:00 am • # 4 
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wow, FF. that is about three steps further than i would have taken it- but i concurr.

what i think is odd about it, and sinister, is that it creates the appearance that anyone can be famous, ignoring the very real "moldmaking" that goes on in the fame game.

namely, if you are even modestly talented, but very attractive, you can make it in show business. the opposite? one in 1/1000000.
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 Offline macroscopic
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 7:01 am • # 5 
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sooz08 wrote:
Thanks, Mac ~ Image

I agree that part of Susan's appeal is her "Cinderella" story ~ and we certainly have seen both the positive AND the negative effects that story has had on Susan herself ~ I think the "social construct" you mention will make a great discussion ~ and, with your permission, I'd like to move this thread to General ~

Sooz


sooz - fine by me.
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Calluna
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 7:27 am • # 6 
The sad irony is that her fame really is based on the very thing that she is supposed to be an example against...her appearances. Just, instead of being given notoriety for extremely good looks and average talent, she's given notoriety for extremely bad looks and average talent. Along with what Macro said, I think her actual talent is very one-dimensional, not just her fame. So, she can sing show tunes. So can I (you should hear me in the shower!). Compared to other types of songs, show tunes tend to be fairly easy to sing. What's difficult is PERFORMING them. Remember, they weren't written to just be sung, they were written to be accompanied by acting. I haven't seen any evidence that she can act, or even perform beyond standing at a mic and singing. She was performing on the Today Show today, and it was actually weird watching her sing, because she was doing some strange, spastic head-jerk thing while singing. I also haven't seen any evidence that she has any versatility in her singing ability. Could she pick up a new piece and perform it without having heard someone else perform it over and over first? Can she sing anything from a different genre?
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FeatheredFish
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 8:54 am • # 7 
Calluna wrote:
�Can she sing anything from a different genre?
Her first release is a cover of the Stones - Wild Horses.
I'll embed it here (but be advised the piano and strings arrangement will rot your teeth in an instant).



The vocal melody line borrows more from the beautifully delicate The Sundays cover than it does from the original





Last edited by FeatheredFish on 11/23/09 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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kathyk1024
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 10:04 am • # 8 
We are worried about Boyle's range? Have you heard Taylor Swift of the paperthin voice who puts her diary to guitar strains and wins every music award out there? Or the electronics accompanying Britney's lip-synching tour? Let's talk the vocal chops of Jonas Brothers or Miley Cyrus.

The music industry has always produced flavor of the month products; more so now with the modern technologies to hide vocal flaws.

I don't think show tunes are easy. There are varying degrees of success in the genre. She will appeal to the Josh Groban base and the Andrea Boccelli. I don't think she will cut into Lady Gaga's base.
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kathyk1024
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 10:10 am • # 9 
macroscopic wrote:
candidly, i think fame is a unhelpful social construct. it proposes that the Susan Boyles, or the Steve Millers, or the Janet Jacksons are any different than the rest of us- that they are so special that we should model our lives to be more like them. but they really aren't much different- they have the same foibles, faults and failures as the rest of us. sometimes they have even more. they are just luckier.
I have always railed against the concept of role models in connection with fame. Famous people are just that; famous. Just because an athlete is a stellar athlete, it does not make him a stellar person. That is true for politicians, actors, musicians. You can admire the way that someone plays basketball, but the role model business belongs to people the children know personally and has influenced them personally. Idolizing a persona (which is what handlers allow to be exposed) is risky business.
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Calluna
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 10:44 am • # 10 
FeatheredFish wrote:
Calluna wrote:
�Can she sing anything from a different genre?
Her first release is a cover of the Stones - Wild Horses.

Well, after listening to that, it seems the answer is a resounding NO. Ugh, that was AWFUL! Like heavy breathing and screeching.
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 Offline macroscopic
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 10:51 am • # 11 
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kathyk1024 wrote:
We are worried about Boyle's range? Have you heard Taylor Swift of the paperthin voice who puts her diary to guitar strains and wins every music award out there? Or the electronics accompanying Britney's lip-synching tour? Let's talk the vocal chops of Jonas Brothers or Miley Cyrus.

The music industry has always produced flavor of the month products; more so now with the modern technologies to hide vocal flaws.

I don't think show tunes are easy. There are varying degrees of success in the genre. She will appeal to the Josh Groban base and the Andrea Boccelli. I don't think she will cut into Lady Gaga's base.
uh......no.

i concurr about her talents, btw- there are a lot of pop stars that are even more limited.
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Calluna
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 10:54 am • # 12 
kathyk1024 wrote:
We are worried about Boyle's range? Have you heard Taylor Swift of the paperthin voice who puts her diary to guitar strains and wins every music award out there? Or the electronics accompanying Britney's lip-synching tour? Let's talk the vocal chops of Jonas Brothers or Miley Cyrus.

The music industry has always produced flavor of the month products; more so now with the modern technologies to hide vocal flaws.

I'm not saying she's the only one with no range. In fact, I'm saying she's no different. All of those "stars" got where they are more based on their appearances than their vocal talent. Same for her, just it was bad looks instead of good looks, but it still was based on looks.
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 Offline jimwilliam
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/23/09 7:07 pm • # 13 
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but i am troubled somewhat by her fame for the following reason- there are a lot of other talented people out there- more talented than Susan- that will never get that 15 minutes. it has nothing to do with looks for them. it has to do with exposure. it is the same sort of fame that game show contestants get- a cultish sort of one dimensional fame that appeals to a certain segment of public that longs for popular affection but are less than artistically brilliant.

 What makes her different than the others with more talent, macro, is that she took the chance, stood in line and performed on whatever the name of that show is. She made her own break - albeit against some pretty sad company. The other thing that has helped her is the Cinderella story aspect you mentioned. Those of us who don't fit the star mould see ourselves in her and there's a bit of a perveted pleasure in watching her do well in spite of her looks - it's like thumbing your nose at Brad Pitt.
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kathyk1024
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 2:37 am • # 14 

I liked her Wild Horses. There were WTF is going on with that accompaniment moments, but ...

FF - Of course, show biz is exploitation for personal gain.

Sammy loved the winner of this year's America's Got Talent. He was a chicken farmer and the judges tittered at him when he got up there. Now, I don't think he's anywhere as good a singer as Boyle, but Sammy liked his earnestness.

Original discussion - Artistic brilliance??? Isn't that subjective and that has a huge element of luck, mac. Artists today seem more packaging than brilliance, even Boyle even though I am a fan.

Musicians can be brilliant in their garage band, but if no one sees them would it matter.



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FeatheredFish
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 4:48 am • # 15 
I'll put my cards on the table and state that I find her bland in the extreme.
She has an adequate vocal talent, nothing more. An emotional desert.
A Gibson Les Paul guitar has a beautiful voice but it can still produce dull uninspiring music when played by a dull and uninspired musician.
Boyles unique selling point is that she sings well considering she's unattractive. I find that demeaning and irrelevant as a measure of musicianship.

Janis Joplin was unattractive, her ability to drag you along on an emotional rollercoaster was undeniable.

Of course, as with any of the arts, it's all subjective. I'm just not in the market for this.

As to the question about if a band is brilliant in their garage, does it matter?
Damn right it matters, I've been there many times and it mattered. It's what musicians live for.
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 Offline macroscopic
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 4:59 am • # 16 
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jimwilliam wrote:
but i am troubled somewhat by her fame for the following reason- there are a lot of other talented people out there- more talented than Susan- that will never get that 15 minutes. it has nothing to do with looks for them. it has to do with exposure. it is the same sort of fame that game show contestants get- a cultish sort of one dimensional fame that appeals to a certain segment of public that longs for popular affection but are less than artistically brilliant.

What makes her different than the others with more talent, macro, is that she took the chance, stood in line and performed on whatever the name of that show is. She made her own break - albeit against some pretty sad company. The other thing that has helped her is the Cinderella story aspect you mentioned. Those of us who don't fit the star mould see ourselves in her and there's a bit of a perveted pleasure in watching her do well in spite of her looks - it's like thumbing your nose at Brad Pitt.
i know, jim. my point was that there are thousands like her that will never be heard from. part of my problem with that show and starsearch and others like them is that they don't seem to think a person who plays tympany or euphonium is of any interest whatsoever. i am a little sick of vocalists. can you tell?
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 Offline macroscopic
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 5:02 am • # 17 
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Original discussion - Artistic brilliance??? Isn't that subjective and that has a huge element of luck, mac.

i don't think it is that subjective, Kat. i think there is an element of subjectivity- but anyone who knows the arts can weed out the derivative from the original, and the wildly talented from the pedestrian.

Artists today seem more packaging than brilliance, even Boyle even though I am a fan.

Musicians can be brilliant in their garage band, but if no one sees them would it matter.

precisely my point. those that really diserve attention sometimes don't get lucky. we are celebrating Susans LUCK, not her skills.



Last edited by macroscopic on 11/24/09 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Offline macroscopic
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 5:05 am • # 18 
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Boyles unique selling point is that she sings well considering she's unattractive. I find that demeaning and irrelevant as a measure of musicianship.

bingo. but i will take exception to unattractive and say "not conventionally attractive:".

and it is not entirely subjective. a tone deaf person is tone deaf no matter who the judge.
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kathyk1024
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 5:36 am • # 19 

Original discussion - Artistic brilliance??? Isn't that subjective and that has a huge element of luck, mac.

i don't think it is that subjective, Kat. i think there is an element of subjectivity- but anyone who knows the arts can weed out the derivative from the original, and the wildly talented from the pedestrian.

Boy, I don't agree with that one. Everyone is original these days without any chops to back them up. We have Rhianna and Lady Gaga wearing lights and bashing bottles on pianos to demonstrate their originality/creativity. This may be a discussion between commercial and truly brilliant musically, but aaarg.

You can't blame Susan Boyle, American Idol, whatever for the packaging phenomena. If anyone blame Disney. The Britneys, Justins were picked as kids and packaged for our mass production.

There was undoubtably a script behind Boyle too. The same one was played for the chicken farmer on America's Got Talent.

The garage band will consider itself brilliant which may be all they need. And truthfully they may be. However, brilliant and unmarketable will have small audiences and probably will never have the level of fame of the packaged deals.



Last edited by kathyk1024 on 11/24/09 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Offline sooz06
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 5:44 am • # 20 
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I go back to my original comment that part of Susan's appeal is her "Cinderella" story ~ not so much rags-to-riches, but more along the lines of blowing holes into today's rampant conventional mindset that you must be tall, blonde, stick-thin with big boobs, and 25 to succeed ~ I agree with Jim's comment about taking pleasure watching Susan beat the odds ~ same with Kevin Skinner [the chicken farmer] who won America's Got Talent this year ~ for both, the judges and the audiences reacted to their looks and at least mentally wrote each off before either sang one note ~ I can only speak for myself, but I often respond to a performer's "emotional commitment" to his/her craft at least equally to his/her raw talent ~ that "emotional commitment" is what I respond to in both Susan and Kevin ~

Sooz
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 Offline sooz06
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 5:46 am • # 21 
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Kath, I'm not sure what happened in your post #18, but I can't see the end of what I'm guessing is your last comment ~

Sooz
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 Offline macroscopic
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 6:41 am • # 22 
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Boy, I don't agree with that one. Everyone is original these days without any chops to back them up.

if i am understanding the statement, i fervently disagree with it- unless you consider "popular" and "original" to be the same thing. it amazes me how many people seem to think that.

We have Rhianna and Lady Gaga wearing lights and bashing bottles on pianos to demonstrate their originality/creativity. This may be a discussion between commercial and truly brilliant musically, but aaarg.

not familiar with either of those artists, and there is probably a reason for that.

You can't blame Susan Boyle, American Idol, whatever for the packaging phenomena.

i absoltely can, and i will. they are more to blame for it than anyone i can think of in the last (10) years.

If anyone blame Disney. The Britneys, Justins were picked as kids and packaged for our mass production.

fine- blame them too.

There was undoubtably a script behind Boyle too. The same one was played for the chicken farmer on America's Got Talent.

that is cynical, but probably true.

The garage band will consider itself brilliant which may be all they need. And truthfully they may be. However, brilliant and unmarketable will have small audiences and probably will never have the level of fame of the packaged deals.

forgive me for feeling that there is something profoundly injust and culturally unhealthy in that.


Last edited by macroscopic on 11/24/09 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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FeatheredFish
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 6:51 am • # 23 
KK said "unmarketable" mac not "unremarkable."

I don't accept that musicianship or the enjoyment derived from musical expression is synonymous with pursuit of fame.
Most people play because they are driven to play.

Van Gogh died a pauper but he never stopped painting because he was materially "unsuccessful".
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 Offline macroscopic
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 7:26 am • # 24 
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FeatheredFish wrote:
KK said "unmarketable" mac not "unremarkable."

I don't accept that musicianship or the enjoyment derived from musical expression is synonymous with pursuit of fame.
Most people play because they are driven to play.

Van Gogh died a pauper but he never stopped painting because he was materially "unsuccessful".


TY, FF. good catch. post corrected after rereading.
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kathyk1024
 Post subject: Susan Boyle- Everywoman
PostPosted: 11/24/09 9:58 am • # 25 

I don't believe I am confusing "popular" and "original" nor do I think it is the same thing.

The "music business" and the artistry of music are two different things. American Idol is all about selling product which is the music business. They aren't interested much in the artistry of music and I guess you are decryring that. I also think there is a huge difference between being a musician and being a star.

You feel that it is culturally unhealthy to have prepackaged stars, marketing and brand?

In 1935, Frank Sinatra in got his big break by winning a contest not unlike American Idol, the Major Bowes Amateur Hour. They attracted 40,000 votes and won the first prize - a six month contract to perform on stage and radio across the United States.

This is not a new phenomena.
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