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PostPosted: 11/28/09 5:18 pm • # 1 
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November 29, 2009
The Safety Net

Food Stamp Use Soars Across U.S., and Stigma Fades

MARTINSVILLE, Ohio - With food stamp use at record highs and climbing every month, a program once scorned as a failed welfare scheme now helps feed one in eight Americans and one in four children.

It has grown so rapidly in places so diverse that it is becoming nearly as ordinary as the groceries it buys. More than 36 million people use inconspicuous plastic cards for staples like milk, bread and cheese, swiping them at counters in blighted cities and in suburbs pocked with foreclosure signs.

Virtually all have incomes near or below the federal poverty line, but their eclectic ranks testify to the range of people struggling with basic needs. They include single mothers and married couples, the newly jobless and the chronically poor, longtime recipients of welfare checks and workers whose reduced hours or slender wages leave pantries bare.

While the numbers have soared during the recession, the path was cleared in better times when the Bush administration led a campaign to erase the program's stigma, calling food stamps "nutritional aid" instead of welfare, and made it easier to apply. That bipartisan effort capped an extraordinary reversal from the 1990s, when some conservatives tried to abolish the program, Congress enacted large cuts and bureaucratic hurdles chased many needy people away.

From the ailing resorts of the Florida Keys to Alaskan villages along the Bering Sea, the program is now expanding at a pace of about 20,000 people a day.

There are 239 counties in the United States where at least a quarter of the population receives food stamps, according to an analysis of local data collected by The New York Times.

The counties are as big as the Bronx and Philadelphia and as small as Owsley County in Kentucky, a patch of Appalachian distress where half of the 4,600 residents receive food stamps.

In more than 750 counties, the program helps feed one in three blacks. In more than 800 counties, it helps feed one in three children. In the Mississippi River cities of St. Louis, Memphis and New Orleans, half of the children or more receive food stamps. Even in Peoria, Ill. - Everytown, U.S.A. - nearly 40 percent of children receive aid.

While use is greatest where poverty runs deep, the growth has been especially swift in once-prosperous places hit by the housing bust. There are about 50 small counties and a dozen sizable ones where the rolls have doubled in the last two years. In another 205 counties, they have risen by at least two-thirds. These places with soaring rolls include populous Riverside County, Calif., most of greater Phoenix and Las Vegas, a ring of affluent Atlanta suburbs, and a 150-mile stretch of southwest Florida from Bradenton to the Everglades.

Although the program is growing at a record rate, the federal official who oversees it would like it to grow even faster.

"I think the response of the program has been tremendous," said Kevin Concannon, an under secretary of agriculture, "but we're mindful that there are another 15, 16 million who could benefit."

Nationwide, food stamps reach about two-thirds of those eligible, with rates ranging from an estimated 50 percent in California to 98 percent in Missouri. Mr. Concannon urged lagging states to do more to enroll the needy, citing a recent government report that found a sharp rise in Americans with inconsistent access to adequate food.

"This is the most urgent time for our feeding programs in our lifetime, with the exception of the Depression," he said. "It's time for us to face up to the fact that in this country of plenty, there are hungry people."

The program's growing reach can be seen in a corner of southwestern Ohio where red state politics reign and blue-collar workers have often called food stamps a sign of laziness. But unemployment has soared, and food stamp use in a six-county area outside Cincinnati has risen more than 50 percent.

With most of his co-workers laid off, Greg Dawson, a third-generation electrician in rural Martinsville, considers himself lucky to still have a job. He works the night shift for a contracting firm, installing freezer lights in a chain of grocery stores. But when his overtime income vanished and his expenses went up, Mr. Dawson started skimping on meals to feed his wife and five children.

He tried to fill up on cereal and eggs. He ate a lot of Spam. Then he went to work with a grumbling stomach to shine lights on food he could not afford. When an outreach worker appeared at his son's Head Start program, Mr. Dawson gave in.

"It's embarrassing," said Mr. Dawson, 29, a taciturn man with a wispy goatee who is so uneasy about the monthly benefit of $300 that he has not told his parents. "I always thought it was people trying to milk the system. But we just felt like we really needed the help right now."

The outreach worker is a telltale sign. Like many states, Ohio has campaigned hard to raise the share of eligible people collecting benefits, which are financed entirely by the federal government and brought the state about $2.2 billion last year.

By contrast, in the federal cash welfare program, states until recently bore the entire cost of caseload growth, and nationally the rolls have stayed virtually flat. Unemployment insurance, despite rapid growth, reaches about only half the jobless (and replaces about half their income), making food stamps the only aid many people can get - the safety net's safety net.

Support for the food stamp program reached a nadir in the mid-1990s when critics, likening the benefit to cash welfare, won significant restrictions and sought even more. But after use plunged for several years, President Bill Clinton began promoting the program, in part as a way to help the working poor. President George W. Bush expanded that effort, a strategy Mr. Obama has embraced.

The revival was crowned last year with an upbeat change of name. What most people still call food stamps is technically the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP.

By the time the recession began, in December 2007, "the whole message around this program had changed," said Stacy Dean of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a Washington group that has supported food stamp expansions. "The general pitch was, 'This program is here to help you.' "

Now nearly 12 percent of Americans receive aid - 28 percent of blacks, 15 percent of Latinos and 8 percent of whites. Benefits average about $130 a month for each person in the household, but vary with shelter and child care costs.

In the promotion of the program, critics see a sleight of hand.

"Some people like to camouflage this by calling it a nutrition program, but it's really not different from cash welfare," said Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation, whose views have a following among conservatives on Capitol Hill. "Food stamps is quasi money."

Arguing that aid discourages work and marriage, Mr. Rector said food stamps should contain work requirements as strict as those placed on cash assistance. "The food stamp program is a fossil that repeats all the errors of the war on poverty," he said.

Suburbs Are Hit Hard

Across the country, the food stamp rolls can be read like a scan of a sick economy. The counties of northwest Ohio, where car parts are made, take sick when Detroit falls ill. Food stamp use is up by about 60 percent in Erie County (vibration controls), 77 percent in Wood County (floor mats) and 84 percent in hard-hit Van Wert (shifting components and cooling fans).

Just west, in Indiana, Elkhart County makes the majority of the nation's recreational vehicles. Sales have fallen more than half during the recession, and nearly 30 percent of the county's children are receiving food stamps.

The pox in southwest Florida is the housing bust, with foreclosure rates in Fort Myers often leading the nation in the last two years. Across six contiguous counties from Manatee to Monroe, the food stamp rolls have more than doubled.

In sheer numbers, growth has come about equally from places where food stamp use was common and places where it was rare. Since 2007, the 600 counties with the highest percentage of people on the rolls added 1.3 million new recipients. So did the 600 counties where use was lowest.

The richest counties are often where aid is growing fastest, although from a small base. In 2007, Forsyth County, outside Atlanta, had the highest household income in the South. (One author dubbed it "Whitopia.") Food stamp use there has more than doubled.

This is the first recession in which a majority of the poor in metropolitan areas live in the suburbs, giving food stamps new prominence there. Use has grown by half or more in dozens of suburban counties from Boston to Seattle, including such bulwarks of modern conservatism as California's Orange County, where the rolls are up more than 50 percent.

While food stamp use is still the exception in places like Orange County (where 4 percent of the population get food aid), the program reaches deep in places of chronic poverty. It feeds half the people in stretches of white Appalachia, in a Yupik-speaking region of Alaska and on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota.

Across the 10 core counties of the Mississippi Delta, 45 percent of black residents receive aid. In a city as big as St. Louis, the share is 60 percent.

Use among children is especially high. A third of the children in Louisiana, Missouri and Tennessee receive food aid. In the Bronx, the rate is 46 percent. In East Carroll Parish, La., three-quarters of the children receive food stamps.

A recent study by Mark R. Rank, a professor at Washington University in St. Louis, startled some policy makers in finding that half of Americans receive food stamps, at least briefly, by the time they turn 20. Among black children, the figure was 90 percent.

Need Overcomes Scorn

Across the small towns and rolling farmland outside Cincinnati, old disdain for the program has collided with new needs. Warren County, the second-richest in Ohio, is so averse to government aid that it turned down a federal stimulus grant. But the market for its high-end suburban homes has sagged, people who build them are idle and food stamp use has doubled.

Next door, in Clinton County, the blow has been worse. DHL, the international package carrier, has closed most of its giant airfield, costing the county its biggest employer and about 7,500 jobs. The county unemployment rate nearly tripled, to more than 14 percent.

"We're seeing people getting food stamps who never thought they'd get them," said Tina Osso, the director of the Shared Harvest Food Bank in Fairfield, which runs an outreach program in five area counties.

While Mr. Dawson, the electrician, has kept his job, the drive to distant work sites has doubled his gas bill, food prices rose sharply last year and his health insurance premiums have soared. His monthly expenses have risen by about $400, and the elimination of overtime has cost him $200 a month. Food stamps help fill the gap.

Like many new beneficiaries here, Mr. Dawson argues that people often abuse the program and is quick to say he is different. While some people "choose not to get married, just so they can apply for benefits," he is a married, churchgoing man who works and owns his home. While "some people put piles of steaks in their carts," he will not use the government's money for luxuries like coffee or soda. "To me, that's just morally wrong," he said.

He has noticed crowds of midnight shoppers once a month when benefits get renewed. While policy analysts, spotting similar crowds nationwide, have called them a sign of increased hunger, he sees idleness. "Generally, if you're up at that hour and not working, what are you into?" he said.

Still, the program has filled the Dawsons' home with fresh fruit, vegetables, bread and meat, and something they had not fully expected - an enormous sense of relief. "I know if I run out of milk, I could run down to the gas station," said Mr. Dawson's wife, Sheila.

As others here tell it, that is a benefit not to be overlooked.

Sarah and Tyrone Mangold started the year on track to make $70,000 - she was selling health insurance, and he was working on a heating and air conditioning crew. She got laid off in the spring, and he a few months later. Together they had one unemployment check and a blended family of three children, including one with a neurological disorder aggravated by poor nutrition.

They ate at his mother's house twice a week. They pawned jewelry. She scoured the food pantry. He scrounged for side jobs. Their frustration peaked one night over a can of pinto beans. Each blamed the other when that was all they had to eat.

"We were being really snippy, having anxiety attacks," Ms. Mangold said. "People get irritable when they're hungry."

Food stamps now fortify the family income by $623 a month, and Mr. Mangold, who is still patching together odd jobs, no longer objects.

"I always thought people on public assistance were lazy," he said, "but it helps me know I can feed my kids."

Shifting Views

So far, few elected officials have objected to the program's growth. Almost 90 percent of beneficiaries nationwide live below the poverty line (about $22,000 a year for a family of four). But a minor tempest hit Ohio's Warren County after a woman drove to the food stamp office in a Mercedes-Benz and word spread that she owned a $300,000 home loan-free. Since Ohio ignores the value of houses and cars, she qualified.

"I'm a hard-core conservative Republican guy - I found that appalling," said Dave Young, a member of the county board of commissioners, which briefly threatened to withdraw from the federal program.

"As soon as people figure out they can vote representatives in to give them benefits, that's the end of democracy," Mr. Young said. "More and more people will be taking, and fewer will be producing."

At the same time, the recession left Sandi Bernstein more sympathetic to the needy. After years of success in the insurance business, Ms. Bernstein, 66, had just settled into what she had expected to be a comfortable retirement when the financial crisis last year sent her brokerage accounts plummeting. Feeling newly vulnerable herself, she volunteered with an outreach program run by AARP and the Ohio Association of Second Harvest Food Banks.

Having assumed that poor people clamored for aid, she was surprised to find that some needed convincing to apply."I come here and I see people who are knowledgeable, normal, well-spoken, well-dressed," she said. "These are people I could be having lunch with."

That could describe Franny and Shawn Wardlow, whose house in nearby Oregonia conjures middle-American stability rather than the struggle to meet basic needs. Their three daughters have heads of neat blond hair, pink bedroom curtains and a turtle bought in better times on vacation in Daytona Beach, Fla. One wrote a fourth-grade story about her parents that concluded "They lived happily ever after."

Ms. Wardlow, who worked at a nursing home, lost her job first. Soon after, Mr. Wardlow was laid off from the construction job he had held for nearly nine years. As Ms. Wardlow tells the story of the subsequent fall - cutoff threats from the power company, the dinners of egg noodles, the soap from the Salvation Army - she dwells on one unlikely symbol of the security she lost.

Pot roast.

"I was raised on eating pot roast," she said. "Just a nice decent meal."

Mr. Wardlow, 32, is a strapping man with a friendly air. He talked his way into a job at an envelope factory although his boss said he was overqualified. But it pays less than what he made muscling a jackhammer, and with Ms. Wardlow still jobless, they are two months behind on the rent. A monthly food stamp benefit of $429 fills the shelves and puts an occasional roast on the Sunday table.

It reminds Ms. Wardlow of what she has lost, and what she hopes to regain.

"I would consider us middle class at one time," she said. "I like to have a nice decent meal for dinner."

Matthew Ericson and Janet Roberts contributed reporting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/us/29 ... nted=print



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PostPosted: 11/29/09 1:57 am • # 2 
Empathy is fickle among a middle class that's a taste of the lifestyle they foisted on the less-fortunate when times were good. How long after things turn around and we start hearing about "my tax money paying for those lazy bums milking the system" again?


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 3:49 am • # 3 
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I would like to see a more comprehensive food stamp program instituted up here. I like the basic philosophy behind it--that no matter what else has gone right or wrong for someone, no matter what mistakes they've made, no one in our society can go hungry.

We have welfare, but it doesn't pay enough for someone to live in toronto, and doesn't deal with the fact that some people just can't manage money, and don't save for food.

We have food banks, but they rely on donations, which go down in just the times when need goes up, and anyway, they haven't been keeping up with demand for years. They also don't carry fresh goods.

I like foodstamps, where people can go to an actual grocery store, and buy staples that are fresh and that people need to be healthy. Fruit, vegetables, and milk. and i would REALLY like it if the program also covered breakfast programs at ALL local schools. I"m sick of trying to teach hungry kids to read.


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 5:12 am • # 4 
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im totally in agreement with you green. Another impediment even with food stamps is many of the poor do not have transportation to the "good" stores and are left to shop at crappy stores with marginal fresh goods.

No one should go hungry especially kids. US and Canada have no excuse for letting anyone go hungry.


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 5:42 am • # 5 
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I agree 1,000% that no one should go hungry in the US or Canada ~ my problem is with the rampant fraud in all social programs ~ there will always be some with the mindset of "getting something for nothing" and "beating the system" ~ I deeply believe in lending a helping handed when needed ~ I do NOT believe in food stamps, or any kind of welfare, as a career choice ~ all of our social programs need very serious revamping, with strong controls built in ~ including training for the government employees who administer the programs AND prosecution for those who are scamming the system ~

I've told this story before, but maybe 5 or so years ago, I stopped at the grocery store on my way home from work to pick up a frozen pizza ~ I was behind a VERY well dressed couple at checkout ~ she was in full-length mink, wearing Ferragamo shoes, and dripping in expensive jewelry ~ his overcoat appeared to be cashmere and he too was wearing Ferragamo shoes ~ the cashier was chit-chatting pleasantly with them as she rang up filets, lobster tails, shrimp, fresh veggies, and several bottles of wine ~ they paid using the food stamps debit card ~ but the "best" part is since you can't use food stamps for liquor, the man pulled a huge wad of bills out of his pocket to pay for the wine ~ I was REALLY pissed off and even the cashier's attitude changed dramatically ~ I walked past them on the way to my car ~ they were loading their groceries into their brand new "S" class Mercedes ~ I [stupidly] made some comment about "you should be ashamed of yourselves" ~ and I was very lucky that the only return comment was "mind your own business" ~ Image

Sooz


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 5:51 am • # 6 
Maybe they were doing the shopping for their poor elderly parents who receive foodstamps. Image


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 5:57 am • # 7 
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LOL, gop ~ yeah, right ~ and if you believe THAT, I have a lovely ocean-front lot to sell you ... in Arizona! ~ seriously tho, the fraud simply has to be contained and prosecuted ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 6:00 am • # 8 
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I think, when balancing a program like foodstamps, you have to balance the need to protect against fraud with the expense of fraud investigation, the relative cost of the fraud, and the need to maintain a sense of basic dignity and humanity for people who access the programs.

I know from studying the welfare issue in ontario, that actual fraud, while antecdotally annoying, doesn't add up to a big chunk of public spending, especially when you consider what a small portion of the public pie actually goes to welfare in the first place. It's usually a case of the working poor getting an extra 30 dollars a month or something, because someone's living with a boyfriend they didn't declare, or some such nonsense. The cost of investigating that kind of fraud usually ends up to be more than the savings of catching it.

I think with food stamps, part of this could be solved by limiting the groceries that can be accessed through the food stamp program to just what is needed for a balanced healthy diet, and leaving off things that are more luxuries. In the case of the woman in the mink coat, she could have been asked to limit her purchases to bread, milk, hamburger etc. instead of lobster. this would also solve the problem of food stamp cards being stolen extorted or sold from people, since their value to people not poor would therefore be deminished, if they couldn't buy what they wanted with them. The problem with this idea is it means having humiliating conversations at the checkout, which is something i would save the truely poor. So it bears some thought.

I do think you have to be careful judging people based on how they are dressed or what they seem to own, since i know from professional experience how quickly people's circumstances can change. I used to do intake interviews for a welfare related system in Ontario, and i once interviewed a woman in a mink coat who had been arrested for stealing meat in a grocery store. She was the wife of a wealthy man who had recently been separated--her husband was trying desperately to keep her from getting a family lawyer, was still making payments on her car and home, but wasn't giving her any money to feed herself or the children. She had been a stay at home wife and mother, and had never worked a day in her life. They were Eurpean of some stripe, and i think there were cultural norms re: gender roles in play. She had no idea where to start, and you can't eat a fur coat. I know eventually she could have liquidated her assets to support herself, but her husband had told her that he would charge her with theft if she took anything from "his" house.

I'm not saying that's what was going on in the case you viewed, sooz, but i just think that there is often more going on than people can judge from the outside. By limiting the food stamp program to just basic staples, we could ensure that everyone gets enough to eat, and save the public purse some money without making people jump through hoops to justify their cry for help. That's the society I would like to live in.


Last edited by Anonymous on 11/29/09 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 11/29/09 6:09 am • # 9 
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never judge a person with only a few facts sooz. you have no idea the of the whole picture.


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 6:25 am • # 10 
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Excellent post, Greeny ~ I'd like to live in that society, too ~ and good advice, BEP ~ I generally and consciously try very hard to be NONjudgmental, especially about personal circumstances ~ and this couple might well have been in hock up to their eyeballs ~ but I'm willing to bet both of you that this was blatant fraud ~ it's a significant problem in any big city ~ and don't forget this was years before today's economic crisis ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 6:52 am • # 11 
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sooz, i dont deny there is fraud. One of the big reasons they went to cards instead of stamps is to stop the embarassment of having everyone in line examine your items when you pulled out your food stamps. Now with the card its more like using a debt card and people dont all know that you are poor. Poor people have enough issues without everyone casting stones without all the facts. I know you are a caring person, i think sometimes people just forget how harsh those judgements can be, on someone who is truly needy.


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 7:04 am • # 12 
The welfare system here in Ontario is a nasty bit of populist trash. Here are some facts most Ontarians wouldn't know unless confronted with the need:

- if you own a vehicle worth more than $10,000 you have to sell it. Then you won't qualify because you have too much money, so you have to spend the money you made selling your car before you can reapply for assistance.

- if you have a mortgage, you don't qualify

- if you have credit cards or a line of credit you don't qualify

- if you have access to any pension or investment money you don't qualify. In fact, you have to prove a negative (you don't have access any pension money) before they'll even process your application

- landlords can (and do) check into your personal credit history and can refuse tenancy if you are a welfare recipient

- any income earned is clawed back dollar for dollar for the first three months and then 50% afterwards. The money is clawed back on the next month's cheque. So what happens if you make a few hundred dollars one month then you're left short for rent on the next month? See the previous point...

- even if mom gives her single-mother daughter a hundred bucks to get some food for the kid, 50% is clawed back. What if mom loans her the money? You guessed it... clawed back.

This so-called system is designed to make people homeless because without an address they don't qualify for assistance and the government can claim "Look how many people we got off the welfare rolls!"

Now here's an interesting fact: if a recipient earns money and declares it (and it gets clawed back) that recipient is "red flagged" for an audit because all of a sudden their expenses are greater than the amount of money they received in assistance. NOT ONE CENT OF THEIR EARNED INCOME IS FACTORED IN when the red flag goes up. In other words, if the recipient DOESN'T report income, there's less chance they'll be audited.

I deal with welfare recipients a lot when I volunteer at the food bank and it makes me sick to think that there are people out there who think that welfare recipients somehow "deserve" this kind of treatment. We hear a lot about discrimination when it comes to race , creed or sexual orientation - but we hear nothing about the discrimination welfare recipients are faced with everywhere they turn.


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 7:12 am • # 13 
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I understand and your point is well taken, BEP ~ but the very expensive designer clothing/shoes/jewelry/watches and especially the big wad of 50s and 100s pulled out of his pocket raised my eyebrows and my blood pressure ~ even before I saw them loading up the new "S" class Mercedes ~ I am very sensitive to "need" and do what I can, both financially and via volunteering ~ but I still believe this specific couple were scammers ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 7:21 am • # 14 
I'm willing to wager that for every one scammer there are a 1,000 in need.


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 7:30 am • # 15 
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Probably right today, Sid ~ which is exactly why I contribute and volunteer ~ but that does NOT mean the scammers should be tolerated ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 7:37 am • # 16 
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sooz08 wrote:
I understand and your point is well taken, BEP ~ but the very expensive designer clothing/shoes/jewelry/watches and especially the big wad of 50s and 100s pulled out of his pocket raised my eyebrows and my blood pressure ~ even before I saw them loading up the new "S" class Mercedes ~ I am very sensitive to "need" and do what I can, both financially and via volunteering ~ but I still believe this specific couple were scammers ~

Sooz
It wouldn't surprise me if they had gotten the card from someone truly in need, either through extortion or some other shady deal. I understand there's a fair bit of that kind of thing that goes on as well. See, by making the food stamps easier for everyone to access, but limiting what can be bought with them, you could cut down on this kind of fraud. They wouldn't have "resale" value.


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 7:51 am • # 17 
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i've known people who collected food stamps, and to the person they were all decent and hardworking.


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 8:22 am • # 18 
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green apple tree wrote:
sooz08 wrote:
I understand and your point is well taken, BEP ~ but the very expensive designer clothing/shoes/jewelry/watches and especially the big wad of 50s and 100s pulled out of his pocket raised my eyebrows and my blood pressure ~ even before I saw them loading up the new "S" class Mercedes ~ I am very sensitive to "need" and do what I can, both financially and via volunteering ~ but I still believe this specific couple were scammers ~

Sooz
It wouldn't surprise me if they had gotten the card from someone truly in need, either through extortion or some other shady deal. I understand there's a fair bit of that kind of thing that goes on as well. See, by making the food stamps easier for everyone to access, but limiting what can be bought with them, you could cut down on this kind of fraud. They wouldn't have "resale" value.


Extortion and other shady deals definitely exist ~ as does counterfeiting ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 1:04 pm • # 19 
Sidartha wrote:
The welfare system here in Ontario is a nasty bit of populist trash. Here are some facts most Ontarians wouldn't know unless confronted with the need:

- if you own a vehicle worth more than $10,000 you have to sell it. Then you won't qualify because you have too much money, so you have to spend the money you made selling your car before you can reapply for assistance.

- if you have a mortgage, you don't qualify

- if you have credit cards or a line of credit you don't qualify

- if you have access to any pension or investment money you don't qualify. In fact, you have to prove a negative (you don't have access any pension money) before they'll even process your application

- landlords can (and do) check into your personal credit history and can refuse tenancy if you are a welfare recipient

- any income earned is clawed back dollar for dollar for the first three months and then 50% afterwards. The money is clawed back on the next month's cheque. So what happens if you make a few hundred dollars one month then you're left short for rent on the next month? See the previous point...

- even if mom gives her single-mother daughter a hundred bucks to get some food for the kid, 50% is clawed back. What if mom loans her the money? You guessed it... clawed back.

This so-called system is designed to make people homeless because without an address they don't qualify for assistance and the government can claim "Look how many people we got off the welfare rolls!"

Now here's an interesting fact: if a recipient earns money and declares it (and it gets clawed back) that recipient is "red flagged" for an audit because all of a sudden their expenses are greater than the amount of money they received in assistance. NOT ONE CENT OF THEIR EARNED INCOME IS FACTORED IN when the red flag goes up. In other words, if the recipient DOESN'T report income, there's less chance they'll be audited.

I deal with welfare recipients a lot when I volunteer at the food bank and it makes me sick to think that there are people out there who think that welfare recipients somehow "deserve" this kind of treatment. We hear a lot about discrimination when it comes to race , creed or sexual orientation - but we hear nothing about the discrimination welfare recipients are faced with everywhere they turn.

That is one harsh system. I always thought Canada had system close NZ. We have four pensions coming into our home two from social welfare called national super and two private ones. We have to pay a reduced tax on the one private one because it was taxed weekly as it came out of my pay and no tax on the other as its a veterans pension. The national super one is for all kiwis at the age of sixty five.
I


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 2:23 pm • # 20 
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Illenar--Sid's talking about welfare, not Canada Pension or Old Age Pension, which is a completely separate system, and which does work more like what you're talking about for people who have retired from full time work and who have reached the age of 65. Welfare is not just for retirees, though, it's for anyone out of work (or working, but not enough) that does not have enough money or income to live on, based on a means test.


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 4:15 pm • # 21 
You have to be in abject poverty (with a roof over your head) to qualify for and continue to receive welfare benefits in Ontario. The amount you receive in benefits keep you in the "poverty trap".


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 4:30 pm • # 22 
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I agree with you sid. Especially since Mike Harris's reforms (what year was that?) The Liberals wailed and complained about them, but i don't see how they fixed it after they beat the tories.

Our system is hardhearted. I would like to see social justice return to priority status in Ontario.


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PostPosted: 11/29/09 6:40 pm • # 23 
green apple tree wrote:
Illenar--Sid's talking about welfare, not Canada Pension or Old Age Pension, which is a completely separate system, and which does work more like what you're talking about for people who have retired from full time work and who have reached the age of 65. Welfare is not just for retirees, though, it's for anyone out of work (or working, but not enough) that does not have enough money or income to live on, based on a means test.

Thank you for the explanation apple I was obviously on the wrong wave lengh


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PostPosted: 11/30/09 2:08 am • # 24 
green apple tree wrote:
I agree with you sid. Especially since Mike Harris's reforms (what year was that?) The Liberals wailed and complained about them, but i don't see how they fixed it after they beat the tories.

Our system is hardhearted. I would like to see social justice return to priority status in Ontario.
"Ontario Works" - the official name for Ontario's welfare system - IS the work of Mike Harris and some of the people in his cabinet are now in Harper's federal cabinet. When first introduced, it featured:

- a 26% cut in benefits (I'll never forget Finance Minister David Tsoubuchi saying "they can dicker for their tuna" when announcing the cuts).
- "Compliance Verification Program" or in simple terms, annual auditing
- cuts to most if not all programs. Things like winter coats and boots for kids, school lunch programs etc.
- "work for welfare"

In the first few years of these new "innitiatives" an American company was hired to audit ALL welfare recipients. A whopping $127 Million was spent on the program and less than 10% of that amount was recovered in fruadulent claims, yet the Harris government claimed the program was a success. As homelessness increased in Toronto, the Harris government was quick to point to their success in "getting people off the system", claiming they were getting them "back to work". When the Federal government announced increases to the Family Benefits Program, the Harris Government announced they would clawback the entire amount. When asked about this Harris said "We don't want them (welfare moms) spending the money on beer."

The only changes this Liberal government have made are:

- an annual 2% increases in benefits. A single person's benefits have risen from $520 per month to $560 since McGuinty's Liberals took office in 2003.
- audits cover the previous 3 months instead of 12 months.
- clawbacks are 50% of earnings instead of the complicated formula under Harris. This has actually resulted in an INCREASE in clawbacks for some recipients.

I too am an advocate for social justice in Ontario but I don't see it coming anytime soon. Premier McGuinty won't do anything about the welfare system because even though more people are suffering, it's still a political hot potato in voter-rich and wealthy Toronto - and as Toronto goes, so goes the province. If McGuinty were to loose the next election, it won't be to the NDP - it would be to Hudak's Conservatives and we'd be right back to the "good ol' Harris days". I personally am completely dissatisfied with the Liberals - federal and provincial - but I also know that a vote for the NDP gives the CON jobs the voter split so I can't throw my support behind the NDP either and I'm stuck with a do-nothing bunch of limosine "liberal in name" losers.


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PostPosted: 11/30/09 3:35 am • # 25 
sooz08 wrote:
~ and this couple might well have been in hock up to their eyeballs ~

I have no sympathy at all if they are in hock up to their eyeballs purchasing such extravagances as furs, luxury cars, cashmere sweaters, and then spending the food stamps money on more luxury foods rather than basics. And, quite frankly, it is people like that who create opposition to the entire system. NOBODY wants to be wasting their tax money on cheats and spendthrifts who wouldn't need any assistance if they just saved up for necessities like normal people. Someone living in a $300,000 home does NOT need foodstamps. If they can't afford the mortgage, it's time to sell the house, and sell the contents, and move into a much smaller home. I don't have a problem with someone owning a small home...a little $50,000 1- or 2-bedroom place...since that can be much cheaper than renting and it's not so crazy an idea that they might have managed to save up for a downpayment on that before hitting hard times. We have a lot of little houses like that around here, old company houses from the coal-mining days of the town. But, if you can buy more than that, then you have a nice cushion of something you can sell when times get tight.

So, there are genuinely needy people who were always living at the edge of poverty, have always lived frugally, and don't spend on luxuries, even small luxuries, who do end up in trouble when work hours get cut or a job is lost, and need help getting back on their feet. And I would not ever deny those people the help they need. But, in order to guarantee that the money is there for those who truly need it, we need to really put in some measures to ensure those who have landed themselves in hot water because of their own spending behaviors are not being bailed out at the expense of those who are careful with their money.

I don't know why food stamps can't use a similar system as WIC uses, where there are strict limits on the types of things you can buy with it. And, quite frankly, I think there DOES need to be some stigma attached to using food stamps. People shouldn't be comfortable using it forever. They should want to make the needed changes in their life to do away with food stamps and other forms of public assistance. These programs should always be a temporary net to catch someone and support them until they get back on their feet, but there should always be an expectation they need to get their act together again and get back on their feet.


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