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PostPosted: 11/30/09 6:30 am • # 1 
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I vehemently disagree�with this mindset�~ not only do I disagree with the war generally and escalation specifically, but domestic issues have been back-burnered for far too long ~ health care reform will NOT get cheaper the longer we wait ~ I am totally disgusted with supporting corporate interests at the expense of the American public ~ and I am totally disgusted with the hawks [most of whom have never served in the military] preferring and pushing for death over life ~ you want to continue in Afghanistan? ~ figure out a way to pay for it, same as was done with health care ~ but those pushing for continuing/escalating the Afghan war are scared to approve a tax increase with mid-term elections so close ~ grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! ~ Sooz


By Zaid Jilani at 10:42 am

Conservative Senators Embrace Putting Off Health Care For Americans In Favor Of Escalation In Afghanistan

The policy debate in Washington is currently focused on two topics: a possible escalation of the war in Afghanistan and health care legislation. Both a troop escalation and health care reform carry significant price tags - roughly $100 billion and $80-$100 billion a year respectively. (It should be noted that health care reform, unlike a troop surge, would cut the deficit.)

When it comes to these two debates, hawkish senators have laid out their priorities. They are more than willing to fund a risky troop surge that is increasingly opposed by both Americans and Afghans, yet remain stalwart opponents of health care reform that could save the lives of the 45,000 Americans who die every year because they lack access to health care.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) demonstrated this preference for war over health care and other essential domestic priorities during an appearance on ABC's "This Week" yesterday. He heartily endorsed "a new surge of forces" in Afghanistan while dismissing a war surtax proposed by Rep. David Obey (D-WI). Graham suggested that we "trim up" the health care bill to pay for the war, prompting Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) to remark that Graham and other senate hawks have a "poor set of priorities":

Quote:

GRAHAM: We'll be evaluated by some pretty tough characters in the world by how we handle Afghanistan. … We're gonna have the troops in Afghanistan to win the conflict. [...]

STEPHANOPOULOS: Does [Obey] have a point [about the war surtax]? If we're going to fight a war, shouldn't the American people pay for it?

GRAHAM: Well, I'd like to have an endeavor to see if we can cut current spending…to pay for the war. … Can we trim up the health care bill and other big ticket items to pay for a war that we can't afford to lose? [...]

SANDERS: What Senator Graham is now saying as I understand it is, hey we can cut back on education, so middle class families can't afford to send their families to college. We don't have to rebuild our infrastructure. We don't have to invest in sustainable energy, so we stop importing $350 billion a year in foreign oil. Let's just spend more money in Afghanistan while Europe and the people of China and the people of Russia watch us do that work. I think that is a very poor set of national priorities.

Watch it:

Sen. Richard Lugar (R-IN) echoed similar sentiments during an appearance on CNN's "State of the Union" yesterday. He suggested to host John King that health care legislation should be delayed until next year to focus on Afghanistan, saying, "The war is terribly important. … So this may be an audacious suggestion, but I would suggest we put aside the health care debate until next year, the same way we put cap and trade and climate change away and talk now about the essentials, war and money."

Another Senate conservative, Sen. Evan Bayh (D-IN), also denounced the idea of Obey's war tax to pay for an escalation in Afghanistan. While telling a Fox News host that "there's no bigger deficit hawk in Congress" than him, he suggested "cutting spending in other parts of the budget" rather than raising taxes, signaling that he, too, sees war as a greater priority than domestic counter-cyclical spending in this recessed economy.

As the number of Americans on food stamps rises to an all-time high, the unemployment rate hits double-digits, and Americans continue to perish due to lack of health coverage, how can these senators justify draining funding from crucial domestic programs to pay for an escalation of the war in Afghanistan?

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/11/30/gop ... ealthcare/



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PostPosted: 11/30/09 2:40 pm • # 2 
Both Lindsey Graham and Richard Lugar served in the military. Graham has served tours of duty in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Bayh, a loyal and typical Democrat, has not served in the military. Bayh qualifies as a conservative only in the eyes of the left fringe, which describes CAP and thinkprogress accurately.

There is ample room for cuts in the federal budget to make up for the costs of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Democrats, including Obama during the camaign last year, have stated that they want to stop the spending on the war effort so they can spend that money elsewhere. They aren't interested in deficit reduction, but rather in expanding the domestic reach of the federal government.


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PostPosted: 11/30/09 2:42 pm • # 3 
I'll also say that the notion that someone can't be an advocate for military action because they haven't served in the military is one of the smelliest tubs of crap fostered by the left wing.


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PostPosted: 11/30/09 3:15 pm • # 4 
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gop, the GOP has never seen a war it hasn't embraced ~ part of the "BIG BAD ME" mindset ~ I admit I was in favor of going into Afghanistan at the beginning ~ THAT is where our focus should have stayed ~ but it's 8 years later and circumstances have changed dramatically ~ pretending we're going to "win" in Afghanistan is foolish ~ as soon as we're out, it will revert to its form of tribalism ~ and the lives of so many American troops, and the hundreds of billions of dollars, will have served what purpose? ~ oh yeah ... bin Laden will still be free ~ it's time our tax dollars benefited the American public instead of benefiting corporate interests and military contractors ~

My comment was "most of the hawks", and I stand by that comment ~ I never said that not serving in the military disqualifies anyone as "an advocate for military action because they haven't served in the military" ~ but, generally, combat vets, at least all of those I know, are not so eager to expose new generations of young Americans to warfare unless there is a very specific reason and mission ~

I stand corrected about Graham ~ however, his "tours" in Afghanistan and Iraq were for a couple of weeks at a time, and are not identified as being in combat zones ~ see the wiki entry below ~ btw, is Bayh [who identifies himself as a "Senate fiscal conservate"] a Blue Dog?

Sooz


Graham decided to join the United States Air Force in 1982, and served on active duty until 1988. Following his departure he stayed in the military, joining the South Carolina Air National Guard[1][/sup] and the U.S. Air Force Reserves. During the Gulf War, he was recalled to active duty, serving as a Judge Advocate at McEntire Air National Guard Station in Eastover, South Carolina, where he helped brief departing pilots on the laws of war.

In 2004, Graham received a promotion to Colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserves at a White House ceremony officiated by President George W. Bush.

Graham served in Iraq as a reservist on active duty for short periods during April and two weeks in August 2007, where he worked on detainee and rule-of-law issues.[2][/sup] He also served in Afghanistan during the August 2009 Senate recess.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsey_Graham[/sup]



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PostPosted: 11/30/09 3:21 pm • # 5 
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BTW, you might be surprised how many moderates [like me] the last adminstration's egotistical self-indulgences moved into agreeing with what you are calling the "left fringe" ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 11/30/09 3:30 pm • # 6 
How is Obama proposing to pay for the escalation of and continuation of the war in Afghanistan?

Graham at least got closer to combat than Bush.


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PostPosted: 11/30/09 3:49 pm • # 7 
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gopqed wrote:
Both Lindsey Graham and Richard Lugar served in the military. Graham has served tours of duty in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Bayh, a loyal and typical Democrat, has not served in the military. Bayh qualifies as a conservative only in the eyes of the left fringe, which describes CAP and thinkprogress accurately.

There is ample room for cuts in the federal budget to make up for the costs of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Democrats, including Obama during the camaign last year, have stated that they want to stop the spending on the war effort so they can spend that money elsewhere. They aren't interested in deficit reduction, but rather in expanding the domestic reach of the federal government.


there is ample room for cutting our bloated military, as well- as you have often said. a military which outspends the next closest competitor by something like a factor of 7. a military which is suited far better for empire building than defense. a military which is possibly the greatest threat to world peace that mankind has ever known.


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PostPosted: 11/30/09 4:15 pm • # 8 
sooz, I think you're overlooking the Kosovo war when you claim the Republican party supports all wars. I actually theought that was was Clinton's finest hour as President, but the Republicans opposed that, for the most part.

I also might surprise you when I tell you that I believe it is time for us to extract ourselves militarily from Afghanistan in favor of covert action in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and elsewhere, aimed at breaking the back of terrist organizations and their leaders.

As far as Bayh goes, he probably is a Blue Dog Democrat, but Blue Dogs are not conservatives, they are moderates, at best. In today's Democratic Party, there are many who want to make them outcasts, arguing for ideological purity just as some in the Republican Party are currently doing. Bayh's voting record leans decidedly leftward, receiving a lifetime rating from the ADA of somewhere in the 70's and from the ACU of around 20. He's not a conservative, but highlights what he calls fiscal conservatism because he's from Indiana.


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PostPosted: 11/30/09 4:17 pm • # 9 
macroscopic wrote:
gopqed wrote:
Both Lindsey Graham and Richard Lugar served in the military. Graham has served tours of duty in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Bayh, a loyal and typical Democrat, has not served in the military. Bayh qualifies as a conservative only in the eyes of the left fringe, which describes CAP and thinkprogress accurately.

There is ample room for cuts in the federal budget to make up for the costs of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Democrats, including Obama during the camaign last year, have stated that they want to stop the spending on the war effort so they can spend that money elsewhere. They aren't interested in deficit reduction, but rather in expanding the domestic reach of the federal government.


there is ample room for cutting our bloated military, as well- as you have often said. a military which outspends the next closest competitor by something like a factor of 7. a military which is suited far better for empire building than defense. a military which is possibly the greatest threat to world peace that mankind has ever known.

mac, I disagree with your statements about our military. Our military is suited for defense. Unfortunately, it's been turned into an international police force and nation builders by the people we elected. Our military is no where near the greatest threat to world peace that mankind has ever known. The leaders we elect can come close at times. Our military is only what the leaders we elect make it.


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PostPosted: 11/30/09 5:42 pm • # 10 
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There is ample room for cuts in the federal budget to make up for the costs of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Democrats, including Obama during the camaign last year, have stated that they want to stop the spending on the war effort so they can spend that money elsewhere. They aren't interested in deficit reduction, but rather in expanding the domestic reach of the federal government.

Where and at what cost? I keep hearing this "cut spending", "cut spending" but nobody wants to be specific about where they want cuts of the magnitude required. The usual answer is a generic "cut pork" but when asked exactly what "pork" they can't answer or they come-up with some minor little program that costs somewhere between bugger all and nothing.

I also fail to see what value military service has to do with ability to govern or decide whether a war is worthwhile or not. The average run of the mill soldier has no more idea about the polcies and strategies at play than any other citizen.


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PostPosted: 11/30/09 5:46 pm • # 11 
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gopqed wrote:
sooz, I think you're overlooking the Kosovo war when you claim the Republican party supports all wars. I actually theought that was was Clinton's finest hour as President, but the Republicans opposed that, for the most part.

I also might surprise you when I tell you that I believe it is time for us to extract ourselves militarily from Afghanistan in favor of covert action in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and elsewhere, aimed at breaking the back of terrist organizations and their leaders.

As far as Bayh goes, he probably is a Blue Dog Democrat, but Blue Dogs are not conservatives, they are moderates, at best. In today's Democratic Party, there are many who want to make them outcasts, arguing for ideological purity just as some in the Republican Party are currently doing. Bayh's voting record leans decidedly leftward, receiving a lifetime rating from the ADA of somewhere in the 70's and from the ACU of around 20. He's not a conservative, but highlights what he calls fiscal conservatism because he's from Indiana.

gop- i take it that you don't think there is no liberal party, like i do? Image


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PostPosted: 11/30/09 6:18 pm • # 12 
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With regard to the opening post I fail to see how Afghanistan and health care reform tie together at least on a year over year basis. The war in Afghanistan isn't going to be over by then so all it is is a delaying tactic by the Republicans until after the mid-term elections. But, if the Republicans are serious, then how about this for a compromise. The Democrats agree to continue to fund the war this year in return for Republican support of the Health Care reform bill next year.


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