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 Offline sooz06
PostPosted: 01/04/10 5:52 am • # 26 
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kathyk1024 wrote:
I don't think anyone is physically afraid of Rush. I actually think I could take him. This is a hatemonger stirring the pot fear. I think the hatemongers are playing a huge role in promoting a civil divide by promoting hate in the country. The terrorists provided a catalyst. We didn't so much have the commies to hate after the cold war, so we needed a new target. So now it's the terrorists we can hate with impunity. Bush helped to merge in there all Muslims and foreigners by lashing out at Saddam. Bin Laden attacked us, but by attacking Saddam he showed that any Muslim/Middle Easterner would do. This one seems like religious intolerance, hate of anyone different, and then lastly fear of the actual terrorist.
Lots of truth in those comments, Kath ~ sadly, some people seemingly need to hate someone ~ and often, anyone "different" will do ~

Personally, I don't fear "terrorists" per se ~ but I have a healthy fear of radical fanatics of ANY ilk ~ the problem for me is we cannot know what will kick that ideological fervor, be it religious or political or power-craving or general insanity, into action ~ it can easily be just some smart-ass, off-hand comment ~ but that allegedly "provoked" action is far too often mindless and random violence ~

Sooz
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 Offline macroscopic
PostPosted: 01/04/10 7:29 am • # 27 
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sooz08 wrote:
kathyk1024 wrote:
I don't think anyone is physically afraid of Rush. I actually think I could take him. This is a hatemonger stirring the pot fear. I think the hatemongers are playing a huge role in promoting a civil divide by promoting hate in the country. The terrorists provided a catalyst. We didn't so much have the commies to hate after the cold war, so we needed a new target. So now it's the terrorists we can hate with impunity. Bush helped to merge in there all Muslims and foreigners by lashing out at Saddam. Bin Laden attacked us, but by attacking Saddam he showed that any Muslim/Middle Easterner would do. This one seems like religious intolerance, hate of anyone different, and then lastly fear of the actual terrorist.
Lots of truth in those comments, Kath ~ sadly, some people seemingly need to hate someone ~ and often, anyone "different" will do ~

Personally, I don't fear "terrorists" per se ~ but I have a healthy fear of radical fanatics of ANY ilk ~ the problem for me is we cannot know what will kick that ideological fervor, be it religious or political or power-craving or general insanity, into action ~ it can easily be just some smart-ass, off-hand comment ~ but that allegedly "provoked" action is far too often mindless and random violence ~

Sooz

i am actually more afraid of the new world order types in the GHWB mold, and successors, than any other enemies, foreign or domestic.
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 Offline macroscopic
PostPosted: 01/04/10 7:35 am • # 28 
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a rational response to their fear of being destroyed. and so it goes on.....forever and ever.

You are saying 9/11 was a rational response and our fault?

nope. but i think that most, if not all forms of terrorism are rational and strategic acts, Katy.

let's take 911 as an example. here we have about a dozen of guys who overcame lack of funding, lack of weapons and tactical training, and spent over two years doing things like getting basic training in aircraft, analyzing airport security for weakness, etc. these guys were not just strapping bombs to themselves on an overly emotional religious moment and blowing away innocents. the targets were selected for a reason as well. if they wanted to kill a LOT more people, they could have lit a huge bomb off at the Rose Bowl. they didn't. they selected targets based on their image of American power.

in short, you can say a lot about these acts. they were hideous, cowardly, etc. but that they were not rational or strategic is nonsense. they did it for a reason.

was it our fault? of course not. this sort of crime is never excusable. i am simply saying that it did not happen in a vacuum. it was not a random act.
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 Offline macroscopic
PostPosted: 01/04/10 7:39 am • # 29 
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that is actually not the goal of terrorism according to Pape, who has studied the matter enough to know. it is a shame that we dont appeal to men like him in the discussion.

I do think their goal is to cause chaos and make us do stupid things. We did exactly what they wanted after 9/11. Pape has his opinion, whatever it is, based on his studies. Others have their own.

i don't trust opinions based on fear. i trust opinions that explore the actual reasons these acts took place. those reasons are well known, and have nothing to do with creating an atmosphere of chaos.

ok- i will continue this later, but right now i have a flight to catch, over international waters. i am taking my entire family. and i am not even slightly worried about it. aloha!
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 Offline Chaos333
PostPosted: 01/04/10 11:07 am • # 30 
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Are we talking about fear of terrorists, or fear of death?

Seems to me far more Americans are killed by other Americans than have ever been killed by terrorists. I mean, I'd hate to get hit by a bolt of lighting and zapped to death too ( how inconvenient!) or die in a car accident, or die of cancer, or get caught in the middle of a drive-by shooting....but you have to ask yourself: What is it you're really afraid *of*?

The fearmongers can't scare you if you've made peace with the fact that we are a blink, a speck, a temporary being. Every day I wake up knowing that no matter how much the day sucks, I'm lucky to be here to bitch about it.

"You are going to die a horrible death, remember that."-Illusions, Richard Bach
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 Offline Chaos333
PostPosted: 01/04/10 11:08 am • # 31 
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Aloha, macro???????????
I'm jealous and I admit it. lol
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Katy51
PostPosted: 01/04/10 12:21 pm • # 32 
Ok, I seem to be just repeating myself. We appear to be talking about different things. I am not talking about living in fear of terrorists. I'm talking about feeling some fear and anxiety when you are in a situation or at a place that is a target to terrorists. I'm not talking about letting it control your behavior. I'm talking about feeling it. I'm talking about being more alert and aware.

If you want to think that your mind would not go there if you were boarding a plane and two Arab looking guys speaking their language and glancing around nervously came on, go right ahead. Am I saying we should feel fear or anxiety at that? Nope. I am saying it is natural that some people's minds will go there. Am I saying they should be kicked off or treated differently than any other passenger? Of course, not. Do I think people would watch them carefully during the flight? Yeah, some, if not most, would. Is that irrational? No, not in my opinion. Is it fair to think of them differently? Nope. Is it irrational. In my opinion, no it isn't.

I feel fear or anxiety when I see a truck or car with a confederate flag on the back. Why? Because of the history of that flag and the people who show it. Because of the hatred and violence. I fear for the targets of people like that. I will watch them more closely. I will be more alert and aware. Do I spend my life fearing it. Nope. In certain situations I feel fear and anxiety about it.

So, it appears I disagree with most in here. My opinion is not based on fear, it's based on the human brain and how people think. There will be triggers for fear ad anxiety. Some of them will involve what terrorists have done. I think that is natural and part of being human, not to live in fear or hide from everyone, but to feel the fear and anxiety even if briefly. It may only be briefly enough for you to tell yourself see how good I am I do not fear them.
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kathyk1024
PostPosted: 01/04/10 3:23 pm • # 33 
katy - I think we may be talking about different things. I have brief moments of fear all of the time. Heathrow to Newark?!? I flew that last year, and the passengers there looked like the UN delegation. A highly multi-cultural group. Did I watch anyone carefully? I didn't but I might again with this latest attempt.

I think I mentioned in chat, that right after the Oklahoma City bombing I was early to a meeting in DC. I was planning to go across the street and visit the National Archives but there was a strange looking truck out front so I went nextdoor to the Art Museum.

Women generally have a little bit of fear of strange men in isolation, on dark streets, parking garages. It's part of our training that it's better to be safe than sorry. I've also stated that I am not comfortable going to class in the dark at 6PM alone for the next semester. I know our parking lot is next to the bail bondsman and not far from a very crime-laden housing development. I've also had a man comment on the interestingness of my purse while crossing the street to my building. It is normal to have heightened awareness and to be on edge in a potentially dangerous situation.
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 Offline macroscopic
PostPosted: 01/05/10 12:58 pm • # 34 
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Katy51 wrote:
Ok, I seem to be just repeating myself. We appear to be talking about different things. I am not talking about living in fear of terrorists.
then perhaps you can explain what you meant in post #12 when you said THIS:

Oh good grief, mac and WWII. It's very natural to fear terrorists and terrorism.
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 Offline macroscopic
PostPosted: 01/05/10 1:00 pm • # 35 
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If you want to think that your mind would not go there if you were boarding a plane and two Arab looking guys speaking their language and glancing around nervously came on, go right ahead.

given the amount of screening such men would likely get, i would feel far more uncomfortable flying with some nervous white lady speaking english.
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 Offline macroscopic
PostPosted: 01/05/10 1:02 pm • # 36 
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Chaos333 wrote:
Aloha, macro???????????
I'm jealous and I admit it. lol

hahaha. it was a good trip. although i would rather ditch the two grannies next time. Image
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Katy51
PostPosted: 01/05/10 1:21 pm • # 37 
macroscopic wrote:
Katy51 wrote:
Ok, I seem to be just repeating myself. We appear to be talking about different things. I am not talking about living in fear of terrorists.
then perhaps you can explain what you meant in post #12 when you said THIS:

Oh good grief, mac and WWII. It's very natural to fear terrorists and terrorism.

I meant exactly what I said. It was following Illenar's post where she mentioned specific times when she was afraid of terrorism. You said the time to fear it is never. I said it was natural to fear terrorists and terrorism. If you choose to take that out of context and make it mean all the time go ahead. Image

I believe your other post should say considering how much screening those guys SHOULD get. Our airport security still sucks. I still want to know what technology can detect explosives in undies.
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 Offline macroscopic
PostPosted: 01/05/10 1:56 pm • # 38 
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You said the time to fear it is never.

no i didn't. i said the PROPER time to fear them is never. the IMPROPER time is always.
the goal of terrorists is to terrorize. i refuse to give in to that.

I said it was natural to fear terrorists and terrorism.

yes, i know. i cited your post.

If you choose to take that out of context and make it mean all the time go ahead. Image

i took it as an isolated remark. thanks for explaining that you were defending ilenar.

I believe your other post should say considering how much screening those guys SHOULD get.

when a Harvard professor gets a cavity search simply for being Arab, i think our screening is adequate.
and again, what i said was that the person you described is LIKELY to get searched, Katy. not that they were GUARANTEED to get searched.

Our airport security still sucks. I still want to know what technology can detect explosives in undies.

well, that will certainly ruin MY travel plans! Image


Last edited by macroscopic on 01/05/10 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Katy51
PostPosted: 01/05/10 2:01 pm • # 39 
macroscopic wrote:
Ilenar wrote:
Just as a matter of interest when is the proper time to be afraid of terrorism. Would it be ok to be afraid if you lived in Pakistan for instance.

I would say that most American citizen have some fear of terrorism that is if they have any feelings at all. I know that I do. Not that I dwell on it but to see the terriost attacks daily across the world causes me to fear. When I travel by air it does cross my mind and I do look more closely and my fellow travellers but I still travel and always will terriosts will not stop me but I do fear them.

the proper time to fear terrorism is never.

This is what you said, mac
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Katy51
PostPosted: 01/05/10 2:05 pm • # 40 
Did a Harvard professor get a cavity search just for being Arab? Wow. please post the reference for that. I'd like to read that. If it happened it still shows our screening to suck wouldn't you say? Some people can get through with explosives and some are checked too thouroughly.
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 Offline macroscopic
PostPosted: 01/05/10 2:10 pm • # 41 
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Katy51 wrote:
macroscopic wrote:
Ilenar wrote:
Just as a matter of interest when is the proper time to be afraid of terrorism. Would it be ok to be afraid if you lived in Pakistan for instance.

I would say that most American citizen have some fear of terrorism that is if they have any feelings at all. I know that I do. Not that I dwell on it but to see the terriost attacks daily across the world causes me to fear. When I travel by air it does cross my mind and I do look more closely and my fellow travellers but I still travel and always will terriosts will not stop me but I do fear them.

the proper time to fear terrorism is never.

This is what you said, mac
well, at least we agree on one thing. Image
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 Offline macroscopic
PostPosted: 01/05/10 2:14 pm • # 42 
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Katy51 wrote:
Did a Harvard professor get a cavity search just for being Arab? Wow. please post the reference for that. I'd like to read that.
i tried looking it up in the 10 mins i had at work, but could not find it. maybe i got the university wrong. i will try again later, if time allows.

in the mean time, someone else will probably remember and find it for me. (hint hint) Image
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Katy51
PostPosted: 01/05/10 2:35 pm • # 43 
Ok we can play semantics. You said the proper time to fear terrorists is never. My post was this "You said the time to fear it is never. " I see no difference between the two. But, ok I sit corrected. It changes nothing. In my opinion there are times, such as those Illenar mentioned, where it is natural for a person to feel fear of terrorism or terrorists. Not everyone will, but it isn't unnatural or irrational that some do.
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 Offline macroscopic
PostPosted: 01/05/10 4:50 pm • # 44 
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Ok we can play semantics. You said the proper time to fear terrorists is never. My post was this "You said the time to fear it is never. " I see no difference between the two.

okey dokey.

In my opinion there are times, such as those Illenar mentioned, where it is natural for a person to feel fear of terrorism or terrorists. Not everyone will, but it isn't unnatural or irrational that some do.

i think the general way that most people fear terrorism is totally irrational. are there SPECIFIC instances where it is NOT? sure. but i don't live in Gaza, and neither does ilenar. in fact, i would say that of all places on the planet for someone to live, ilenar is most remote from terrorism. then again, maybe the Maoris are up to something i don't know about.

it is hard to talk about this subject without being accused of being a terrorist appeaser, so let me be clear that i think that terrorists should be hunted down and brought to justice. period. that having been said, however, i think that internationalism and interventionism put us far more at risk than isolationism, and i think there is SUBSTANTIAL evidence to back that up. if we want to mitigate that risk, we can do so by altering our foreign policy in such a way as to NOT make us as glaring of a target. a good example would be if we spent as much time feeding and building hospitals for the Afghanis as the Taliban does. furthermore, it would undermine support for the Taliban, which seems like a really good idea to me. and on the flip side of the coin, bombing the crap out of some village that supposedly has AQ in it seems like a dismally bad idea to me. ditto for unmanned drones.

ironically, our fears are preventing us from making the rational choices that would reduce our risks, and instead drive us further into the hands of terrorists. for example, simply changing the LANGUAGE of debate from the good -vs- evil dialog to one that addresses the underlying issues and concerns will undermine terrorism (which relies on that dialog) considerably.

if you were trying to make a more mundane point about not taking unneccessary risks, i will readily conceed it, Katy. so, let's just say i was talking to ilenar, shall we?


Last edited by macroscopic on 01/05/10 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Katy51
PostPosted: 01/05/10 5:32 pm • # 45 

Mac, I know you were responding to Illenar. So was WWII. Both of you felt her fear was irrational. You also appeared to be taking what she said as being fearful of terrorists all the time. That's not what she said. I think it's irrational to never have a fear of them under any circumstances. I think it is natural for people to feel fear at different times. So, I joined in.

Mac, you said "if you were trying to make a more mundane point about not taking unneccessary risks, i will readily conceed it, Katy. so, let's just say i was talking to ilenar, shall we? "

No mac, I made my point. If you don't get it or don't agree, that's fine with me. It's obvious from that last statement that you ignored most of what I said in my other posts. That's also fine with me, but it does make it a bit of a waste of time to discuss anything with you.
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 Offline macroscopic
PostPosted: 01/06/10 11:29 am • # 46 
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Mac, I know you were responding to Illenar. So was WWII. Both of you felt her fear was irrational.

yep. still do.

You also appeared to be taking what she said as being fearful of terrorists all the time. That's not what she said.

what she said is that she fears terrorists. i took that to mean always, since she didn't qualify it.

I think it's irrational to never have a fear of them under any circumstances.

and again, i think that should be the goal. it deprives them of what they crave. our fear.

I think it is natural for people to feel fear at different times. So, I joined in.

so, are there times when you do NOT fear terrorists, Katy?

Mac, you said "if you were trying to make a more mundane point about not taking unneccessary risks, i will readily conceed it, Katy. so, let's just say i was talking to ilenar, shall we? "
No mac, I made my point. If you don't get it or don't agree, that's fine with me.

nope. i am still not getting it. under what circumstances should we fear terrorists, Katy?

It's obvious from that last statement that you ignored most of what I said in my other posts.

if i had ignored what you said, i would not have replied to any of your comments, Katy.

That's also fine with me, but it does make it a bit of a waste of time to discuss anything with you.

i respect and value my own time, and so i appreciate it when you or anyone else choose to spend yours with me.
i am sorry if my not understanding you has been interpreted as anything other than that. but for the record, i AM trying.


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 Offline oskar576
PostPosted: 01/06/10 12:41 pm • # 47 
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I don't have any fear of terrorists either. The odds of a "terrorist" placing me in any danger whatsoever is so remote as to be nearly incalculable.
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 Offline sooz06
PostPosted: 01/06/10 12:42 pm • # 48 
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Mac, maybe we are using different definitions of "fear", but to me fear is an emotional and totally normal reaction to some triggers and there are vastly differing levels of fear ~ there is an enomous difference between fear that paralyzes us from acting and fear that puts us on alert and makes us more aware ~ far more important to me than fear itself is how we handle that fear ~ I can and often do feel a shiver of fear in stressful situations [i.e., "what if I screw this up"] ~ but it doesn't stop me from functioning and doing what needs to be done and, in fact, I think sometimes it helps me get thru what needs to be done ~ I also think most males would never publicly admit fear except in the most dire circumstances, if then ~ but we are all the sum of our experiences ~

Sooz
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Katy51
PostPosted: 01/06/10 1:01 pm • # 49 

I think it is natural for people to feel fear at different times. So, I joined in.

Mac asked: "so, are there times when you do NOT fear terrorists, Katy? "

Mac, you are not stupid so I have to assume you either have not really read to understand my posts or you are playing a game. If you had read my posts to understand them you would not be asking this stupid question. You are stuck on us living in fear of terrorists no matter how many times we have said otherwise. Fine, think that. If you really want to understand, the answers are in my previous posts.
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WWIIwarrior
PostPosted: 01/06/10 1:21 pm • # 50 
[b wrote:
Katy51[/b]]

I think it is natural for people to feel fear at different times. So, I joined in.

Mac asked: "so, are there times when you do NOT fear terrorists, Katy? "

Mac, you are not stupid so I have to assume you either have not really read to understand my posts or you are playing a game. If you had read my posts to understand them you would not be asking this stupid question. You are stuck on us living in fear of terrorists no matter how many times we have said otherwise. Fine, think that. If you really want to understand, the answers are in my previous posts.



Katy51

Your post did not address me, but it did earlier and just possibly you don't want to hear it again, but I do not even think about terrorists even when going into strange places, that could be inhabited by Terrorists... I am more concerned about the folks that are citizens right here in the States, especially during these terrible times... They are quite capable of anything...
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