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PostPosted: 01/30/10 7:02 am • # 26 
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oskar576 wrote:
Weren't many Repubs for PAYGO before they were against it?

nope.  but SEVERAL were.  i am trying to figure out why ANY Republican would vote against it.  it seems like a brilliant bill, to me.


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 7:48 am • # 27 
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i am trying to figure out why ANY Republican would vote against it.

One word: OBSTRUCTIONISM


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 7:54 am • # 28 
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oskar576 wrote:
i am trying to figure out why ANY Republican would vote against it.

One word: OBSTRUCTIONISM

Exactly ~ the "defeat/delay everything" pledge ~ for me, this vote is particularly damaging, deceitful, disgusting, AND revealing ~ Image

Sooz
  


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 8:15 am • # 29 
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sooz08 wrote:
oskar576 wrote:
i am trying to figure out why ANY Republican would vote against it.

One word: OBSTRUCTIONISM

Exactly ~ the "defeat/delay everything" pledge ~ for me, this vote is particularly damaging, deceitful, disgusting, AND revealing ~ Image

Sooz
  
that is the answer i suspect.  and if so, i have an ancillary question:

why do Republicans harp on and on about being deficit hawks, then vote largely AGAINST measures that propose to control it?
i recall with some puzzlement that the ONLY plank on Gingrich's contract with America that did NOT get fulfilled was the BBA. 
if it is NOT the intention of the GOP to control deficits, then why do they keep claiming it is important to them?
in addition, why don't Democrats toot their own horn in this capacity.  after all, they have managed to balance the budget FAR MORE OFTEN since WW2 than Republicans?


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 9:09 am • # 30 
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Mac, the following ProgressReport identifies the "deficit peacocks" ~ Sooz


THE PROGRESS REPORT
January 26, 2010
by Faiz Shakir, Amanda Terkel, Matt Corley, Benjamin Armbruster, Zaid Jilani, and Alex Seitz-Wald

ECONOMY

Deficit Peacocks

As the Obama administration and Congress deal with the economic problems facing the country -- including double-digit unemployment, a housing crisis, credit shortage, and stagnating wages -- one issue that has captured the headlines in recent days is that of the national debt. Publicly held debt currently stands at nearly $7.8 trillion, and the current federal budget deficit is $1.4 trillion. While eventually dealing with the budget deficit to pay down the nation's debt is critical, conservatives have seized on the budget deficit to promote their own selective version of deficit reduction, which emphasizes crippling cuts to basic social services, declares certain sectors off-limits from waste trimming, and rules out raising taxes on those who can afford it. The Center for American Progress' Associate Director for Tax and Budget Policy, Michael Linden, refers to these conservative thinkers as "deficit peacocks" because they "like to preen and call attention to themselves, but are not sincerely interested in taking the difficult but necessary steps toward a balanced budget." As the nation's policymakers debate our economic priorities, it's important to identify the deficit peacocks, debunk their hollow vision of deficit reduction, and realize that there are pragmatic, progressive steps to take towards a balanced budget.

HOW TO SPOT A PEACOCK: In his paper "
How to Spot a Deficit Peacock," Linden lays out four ways to identify a deficit peacock who "isn't taking our budget problems seriously." First, a deficit peacock never mentions revenues. Linden points out that if we "tried to balance the budget without raising additional revenue, and without reducing spending on Medicare, for example, then the rest of the budget would have to be slashed by a third." Second, a deficit peacock always offers "easy answers"; Linden notes that easy solutions like eliminating earmarks would reduce the deficit by a paltry 3 percent. Third, deficit peacocks tend to support policies that actually make the long-term deficit problem worse; many of the people suggesting gigantic cuts in social spending also "voted repeatedly over the past eight years to make huge [budget-busting] tax cuts." Last, deficit peacocks think "our budget woes appeared suddenly in January 2009." By the time President Obama took office, the Congressional Budget Office was predicting a budget deficit of $1.2 trillion for the year. As Linden notes, deficit peacocks "deliberately ignore the miserable fiscal legacy" of George W. Bush in criticizing Obama's spending. Linden sums up his paper, writing, "There are people from all parts of the political spectrum who strongly and sincerely believe that our current budget path is unsustainable. ... But there are also many who are only interested in scoring political points. ... All you need to do to tell the former from the latter is apply any of these four handy tests."

THE PEACOCK CAUCUS: Unfortunately, Congress appears to have a veritable Peacock Caucus full of members ready to slash social spending without seriously considering ways to raise revenue. One of the leaders of this caucus is Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH), who -- along with Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND),  has proposed a commission "charged with crafting ways to
reduce the country's long-term deficits." While Gregg has slammed a proposal by the Obama administration to create a commission examining the deficit by executive order as a "fraud among anyone interested in fiscal responsibility," the truth is that Gregg has shown little sincere interest in fiscal responsibility himself. While he promotes himself as a standard bearer on the subject, he has voted to cut taxes on the heirs of multi-millionaires and for Bush's budget-busting trillions of dollars of tax cuts. Meanwhile, Sen. Evan Bayh (D-IN) has called on Obama to announce a spending freeze on discretionary spending during his State of the Union address, a proposal that Obama has embraced. The Wonk Room's Pat Garofalo argues that a spending freeze would have "an anti-stimulative effect while the economy is still struggling through a middling recovery." Bayh has not shown a similar level of concern for fiscal responsibility, voting last year for a $250 billion tax cut for the heirs of wealthy families. Democratic Leadership Council head Harold Ford suggested in an op-ed in the New York Times yesterday that the best way to close the budget deficit would be to extend "the current capital gains and dividend tax rates through 2012; giving permanent tax credits for businesses that invest in research and development; and reducing the top corporate tax rate to 25 percent from 35 percent." Economist Paul Krugman notes that the economic vision Ford outlines "has to set some kind of new standard for cluelessness." The budgetary cost of the corporate tax cut alone would be about $1 trillion over 10 years -- which would enrich the nation's richest corporations but actually worsen the deficit. Rep. Patrick McHenry (R-NC) has said that any budget commission must accept the premise that "raising taxes is not the answer." However, without raising taxes and even exempting interest on the debt and spending for Social Security, Medicare, and the defense budget, "the rest of the budget [would need] to be cut by 51 percent to have a balanced budget by 2014" -- which is economically impossible. As Center for American Progress Action Fund Fellow Matt Yglesias notes, "to make the deficit smaller, you can't also make revenues smaller. The math isn't difficult."

DEFICIT REDUCTION THAT WORKS:
In their paper "A Path to Balance: A Strategy for Realigning the Federal Budget," Linden and other CAP experts Michael Ettlinger and Lauren Bazel propose setting goals of reaching a "primary balance" in the budget deficit in 2014 and a fully balanced budget in 2020. Primary balance involves reaching a point where "federal revenues equal program spending." Under the primary balance plan, there will "still be overall deficits under the plan because of the cost of payments on past debt, but we will be paying for all spending on federal government programs by 2014." As the authors note, setting these two goals would avoid both the mistakes of trying to "balance the budget in the next few years" and of putting "off any fiscal improvement until some undefined later date." In order to achieve these goals, the authors ask, "Can the United States afford to continue to spend so much more of its national income than the rest of the world on defense? Are we going to pass health reform that realizes budget savings? Can taxes, beyond what the president has already proposed, be part of the picture?" Indeed, there are important budget savings to be had by taking a tough look at waste in defense, health care, and other sectors as well as the ways we raise revenue. Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) has introduced the Control Spending Now Act, which could reduce the deficit over half a trillion dollars over 10 years by reforming the budgetary process and eliminating wasteful spending on corporate welfare, unnecessary items in the defense budget and foreign military assistance. Additionally, health care advocates point out that passing the Senate's health care bill would cut the deficit by $130 billion over 10 years; economists Dean Baker and David Rosnick note that if the "United States had health care costs that were in line with other wealthy countries, then the [budget] projections would show enormous surpluses, not deficits." Meanwhile, some progressives argue for levying a 0.25 percent financial transaction tax -- which Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) has called an idea with "a great deal of merit" -- that would raise $100 billion a year. The Center for Budget and Policy Properties warns that if "current tax policies -- such as the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts -- are continued, revenues will remain well below the level needed to stabilize the debt-to-GDP ratio." Letting the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy to continue would amount to another $1.2 trillion in lost revenue over the next 10 years. Thus, allowing these upper-income tax cuts to expire would do much to deal with the deficit. While progressives may have healthy disagreement about these ideas, they all reflect a serious attitude towards tackling the deficit that is open to using every tool before us to fix the problem.

http://pr.thinkprogress.org/2010/01/pr20100126


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 9:38 am • # 31 
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i am still wondering, fundamentally, why the GOP talks the talk, but appears to NOT walk the walk.


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 9:46 am • # 32 
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macroscopic wrote:
i am still wondering, fundamentally, why the GOP talks the talk, but appears to NOT walk the walk.
Coz they are a bunch of con-men. Whatever it takes to get back into power.  They convince a lot of dimwits with their usual empty phrases like anti-abortion, gay marriage, spending cuts, smaller government, etc, etc.


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 10:07 am • # 33 
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macroscopic wrote:
i am still wondering, fundamentally, why the GOP talks the talk, but appears to NOT walk the walk.

"Appears"??? ~ granted, there ARE Ds who talk the talk but don't walk the walk as well ~ but the Rs far outnumber them ~ I also agree with Jab's comments ~ those who are "true believers" don't hold the politicians to any standard of action ~ hearing the words suffice for them ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 10:26 am • # 34 
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sooz08 wrote:
macroscopic wrote:
i am still wondering, fundamentally, why the GOP talks the talk, but appears to NOT walk the walk.

"Appears"??? ~ granted, there ARE Ds who talk the talk but don't walk the walk as well ~ but the Rs far outnumber them ~ I also agree with Jab's comments ~ those who are "true believers" don't hold the politicians to any standard of action ~ hearing the words suffice for them ~

Sooz

i was being generous, sooz. otherwise, gop will ram some minor piece of legislation up my backside. 

i would like to think that they are not just being opportunistic- but i am having trouble reconciling my thoughts against their actions.


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 10:59 am • # 35 
macroscopic wrote:
i am still wondering, fundamentally, why the GOP talks the talk, but appears to NOT walk the walk.
Pure and simple self interest and they use every other ruse in the book to convince the public otherwise.
  


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 11:27 am • # 36 
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Sidartha wrote:
macroscopic wrote:
i am still wondering, fundamentally, why the GOP talks the talk, but appears to NOT walk the walk.
Pure and simple self interest and they use every other ruse in the book to convince the public otherwise.
  
i am seriously having trouble thinking of any other explanation, save two:

1) they hate taxes even more than deficits
2) they share Grover Nordquidsts view of government


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 11:47 am • # 37 
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3) they are greedy bastards working loyally for the benefit of their wealthy clientele while hood-winking the ignorant religious poor with annual anti-abortion drives and other pressing, yet never tackled, issues.


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 12:08 pm • # 38 
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jabra2 wrote:
3) they are greedy bastards working loyally for the benefit of their wealthy clientele while hood-winking the ignorant religious poor with annual anti-abortion drives and other pressing, yet never tackled, issues.

how is that different than Sid's position?


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 12:27 pm • # 39 
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It's not. Great minds etc. Image
It just completes your list.


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 12:46 pm • # 40 
macroscopic wrote:
Sidartha wrote:
macroscopic wrote:
i am still wondering, fundamentally, why the GOP talks the talk, but appears to NOT walk the walk.
Pure and simple self interest and they use every other ruse in the book to convince the public otherwise.
  
i am seriously having trouble thinking of any other explanation, save two:

1) they hate taxes even more than deficits
2) they share Grover Nordquidsts view of government

1) Q: Why do they hate taxes? A: Because they have to pay them.  Q: Why are they less caring about the deficit.  A: Because they don't have to pay for it - the next generation does - by then, they'll be dead.

Once again... self interest.

2) Grover Norquist has an unrealistic view of government: "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." What he is advocating is a recipe for anarchy and a failed state.  Q: Why?  A: Given his influence in the right-wing of America, I suspect he, like his fellow "conservatives" feel hard-done-by having to pay for the health and welfare of other Americans.  I can only surmise that he is yet another of those "Fuck you!  I've got mine!" types who wants all the advantages of living in a free enterprise democracy but he's unwilling to pay the price such a society demands.  In other words... self interest and greed.

It's important to understand here that the right-wing in America (and their counterparts in Canada) have usurped the word "conservative" and have redefined it to mean something entirely different.
Below is the "Traditional" definition:

Main Entry: con·ser·va·tism
Pronunciation: \kən-ˈsər-və-ˌti-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1832
1 capitalized a : the principles and policies of a Conservative party b : the Conservative party
2 a : disposition in politics to preserve what is established b : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change; specifically : such a philosophy calling for lower taxes, limited government regulation of business and investing, a strong national defense, and individual financial responsibility for personal needs (as retirement income or health-care coverage)
3 : the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change

The current right wing in the US and Canada have changed the meaning of the word to be nothing more than unfettered "free enterprise" for themselves (meaning a completely unregulated business/corporate class) and everyone else is left to fend for themselves.  To me, this is anti-democratic and goes against everything the Constitution of the United States of America stands for, yet the right-wing will be the first to wrap themselves in the flag and accuse their opposition of being "un-American". Not only that... they have their masses of supporters convinced that by supporting the right, they are somehow more patriotic than those who stand against them. Yet those supporters have more to loose from right-wing policy than they would from centrist-to-left policy.


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 12:55 pm • # 41 
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jabra2 wrote:
It's not. Great minds etc. Image
It just completes your list.

dude- you made my list redundant.  Sid's was entry "0".


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 1:05 pm • # 42 
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Quote:
Yet those supporters have more to loose from right-wing policy than they would from centrist-to-left policy

That's the funny part.


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 1:38 pm • # 43 
"Funny" in a grotesque sort of way. I could never understand how people who are struggling are the first to put their hands over their hearts, recite the Pledge of Allegiance and then enter the voting booth and put their "X" next to the guy who wants to take away his social security or give his wealthy benefactors tax breaks at their expense. It didn't make any sense.

But then I figured it out... and the strategy is as brilliant as it is viciously deceptive.

The candidate says: I am a PROUD AMERICAN.

Turning to "Joe the Plumber" he says: "You are a PROUD AMERICAN!"

The candidate declares: "As a proud American, I am for lowering taxes"

Turning to Joe the Plumber he says: "Well, if you are a proud American and I am a proud American and I represent lower taxes, then you must be for lower taxes too, right?"

Joe the Plumber nods in agreement and says: "I am a proud American and I support lower taxes. I support the candidate!"

The candidate says: "But those people over there want to raise taxes... what does that mean?"

Joe the Plumber puts the deceptive logic together and says: "They are un-American!"

So, even though Joe the Plumber is struggling to make a living, he has been convinced that in order to be considered a "proud American" he must support the candidates that will "lower taxes". What Joe the Plumber isn't able to do is fill in the holes in the argument - ie. lower taxes for whom? And... what are the costs associated with those lower taxes?

This same strategy can be employed on a number of fronts, so that when Joe the Plumber is confronted with the shortfall in his impressed thinking, he has yet another tool to dismiss the broader picture:

Opponent to Joe the Plumber says: But Joe, if they lower taxes, who are they going to lower them for? And how is the government going to pay for things like your gramma's healthcare?

Joe the Plumber responds with: You are an anti-American intellectual elitist!

It's important to note that this strategy can be used several different ways in concert. Substitute "proud American" with "Christian" or "Pro Gun" or "anti-abortion" or "anti-gay rights". Not only that, but they can be used interchangably, as in a "Pro Gun" is equated with being "Christian" or "anti-gay rights" is equated with being "anti-abortion" etc.

Like I said... it's brilliant! Sublime, manipulative and extremely deceptive, but brilliant none the less.


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PostPosted: 01/30/10 5:31 pm • # 44 
Bump for MAc and anyone else... comments please.


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PostPosted: 01/31/10 12:53 am • # 45 
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Only dumbasses would fall for that kind of reasoning.


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PostPosted: 01/31/10 1:53 am • # 46 
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It's becoming rather apparent that the Repugnants have gained the upper hand over the Republicans.


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PostPosted: 01/31/10 3:44 am • # 47 
You say "Only dumbasses would fall for that reasoning" and I would probably agree - but then that reveals something about the state of the public's ability to reason, because the technique seems to have worked on a lot of people. How many time have we on the centre/left been dismissed as intellectual elitists when we draw attention to broader perspectives on various issues? You also say the "repugnants have gained the upper hand over the Republicans". I'm left to wonder if the manipulation that was so carefully crafted over the past thirty or forty years is coming back to haunt the party.  And if so... are the "repugnants" the victims of the very same social irresponsibility they were duped into supporting by the republicans?


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PostPosted: 01/31/10 3:49 am • # 48 
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A large segment of the population are dumbasses. At least half are at or below the average IQ. [img]/domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif[/img]


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PostPosted: 01/31/10 3:50 am • # 49 
I know that... but can we point to them and say with confidence that they are the result of 30 - 40 years of misguided right-wing policy?


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PostPosted: 01/31/10 4:06 am • # 50 
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30-40 years, Sid? Hell, USians are bombarded with USian propaganda from the day they are born... and it isn't from the righties exclusively.


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