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PostPosted: 01/03/10 5:04 am • # 1 
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This is an exceptionally important read IMO ~ it is also a great companion read to the David Brooks' opinion in grampatom's #9 post in the Fireworks smuggled on airliner. Some security! thread ~ many here know that I officed high in Sears Tower for decades before and years after 09/11/01 ~ our office closed and we were sent home shortly after the second WTC tower was hit ~ I spent the next 18 hours or so glued to the TV and contemplating whether I'd ever go back ~ and at about 300am, I decided I was not going to allow fear to rule my life ~ somewhere between 6 - 10 employees never returned to the office ~ I admit it was extremely difficult to walk into Sears Tower the next day and for months afterwards ~ but it was the right decision for me ~ I agree absolutely with those who say terrorism is a tactic, specifically designed to create paralyzing fear ~ and I am very resentful when anyone, especially when it is our elected officials, plays the "fear" card from the safety of their personal bunker ~ that only pumps up the paralyzing fear, which in turn makes us easier targets for those determined to do us harm ~ Sooz


(updated below - Update II)

I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but David Brooks actually had an excellent column in yesterday's New York Times that makes several insightful and important points. Brooks documents how "childish, contemptuous and hysterical" the national reaction has been to this latest terrorist episode, egged on -- as usual -- by the always-hysterical American media. The citizenry has been trained to expect that our Powerful Daddies and Mommies in government will -- in that most cringe-inducing, child-like formulation -- Keep Us Safe. Whenever the Government fails to do so, the reaction -- just as we saw this week -- is an ugly combination of petulant, adolescent rage and increasingly unhinged cries that More Be Done to ensure that nothing bad in the world ever happens. Demands that genuinely inept government officials be held accountable are necessary and wise, but demands that political leaders ensure that we can live in womb-like Absolute Safety are delusional and destructive. Yet this is what the citizenry screams out every time something threatening happens: please, take more of our privacy away; monitor more of our communications; ban more of us from flying; engage in rituals to create the illusion of Strength; imprison more people without charges; take more and more control and power so you can Keep Us Safe.

This is what inevitably happens to a citizenry that is fed a steady diet of fear and terror for years. It regresses into pure childhood. The 5-year-old laying awake in bed, frightened by monsters in the closet, who then crawls into his parents' bed to feel Protected and Safe, is the same as a citizenry planted in front of the television, petrified by endless imagery of scary Muslim monsters, who then collectively crawl to Government and demand that they take more power and control in order to keep them Protected and Safe. A citizenry drowning in fear and fixated on Safety to the exclusion of other competing values can only be degraded and depraved. John Adams, in his 1776 Thoughts on Government, put it this way:

Quote:

Fear is the foundation of most governments; but it is so sordid and brutal a passion, and renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable, that Americans will not be likely to approve of any political institution which is founded on it.

As Adams noted, political leaders possess an inherent interest in maximizing fear levels, as that is what maximizes their power. For a variety of reasons, nobody aids this process more than our establishment media, motivated by their own interests in ratcheting up fear and Terrorism melodrama as high as possible. The result is a citizenry far more terrorized by our own institutions than foreign Terrorists could ever dream of achieving on their own. For that reason, a risk that is completely dwarfed by numerous others -- the risk of death from Islamic Terrorism -- dominates our discourse, paralyzes us with fear, leads us to destroy our economic security and eradicate countless lives in more and more foreign wars, and causes us to beg and plead and demand that our political leaders invade more of our privacy, seize more of our freedom, and radically alter the system of government we were supposed to have. The one thing we don't do is ask whether we ourselves are doing anything to fuel this problem and whether we should stop doing it. As Adams said: fear "renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable."

What makes all of this most ironic is that the American Founding was predicated on exactly the opposite mindset. The Constitution is grounded in the premise that there are other values and priorities more important than mere Safety. Even though they knew that doing so would help murderers and other dangerous and vile criminals evade capture, the Framers banned the Government from searching homes without probable cause, prohibited compelled self-incrimination, double jeopardy and convictions based on hearsay, and outlawed cruel and unusual punishment. That's because certain values -- privacy, due process, limiting the potential for abuse of government power -- were more important than mere survival and safety. A central calculation of the Constitution was that we insist upon privacy, liberty and restraints on government power even when doing so means we live with less safety and a heightened risk of danger and death. And, of course, the Revolutionary War against the then-greatest empire on earth was waged by people who risked their lives and their fortunes in pursuit of liberty, precisely because there are other values that outweigh mere survival and safety.

These are the calculations that are now virtually impossible to find in our political discourse. It is fear, and only fear, that predominates. No other competing values are recognized. We have Chris Matthews running around shrieking that he's scared of kung-fu-wielding Terrorists. Michael Chertoff is demanding that we stop listening to "privacy ideologues" -- i.e., that there should be no limits on Government's power to invade and monitor and scrutinize. Republican leaders have spent the decade preaching that only Government-provided Safety, not the Constitution, matters. All in response to this week's single failed terrorist attack, there are -- as always -- hysterical calls that we start more wars, initiate racial profiling, imprison innocent people indefinitely, and torture even more indiscriminately. These are the by-products of the weakness and panic and paralyzing fear that Americans have been fed in the name of Terrorism, continuously for a full decade now.

Ever since I began writing in late 2005 about this fear-addicted dynamic, the point on which Brooks focused yesterday is the one I've thought most important. What matters most about this blinding fear of Terrorism is not the specific policies that are implemented as a result. Policies can always be changed. What matters most is the radical transformation of the national character of the United States. Reducing the citizenry to a frightened puddle of passivity, hysteria and a child-like expectation of Absolute Safety is irrevocable and far more consequential than any specific new laws. Fear is always the enabling force of authoritarianism: the desire to vest unlimited power in political authority in exchange for promises of protection. This is what I wrote about that back in early 2006 in How Would a Patriot Act?:

Quote:

The president's embrace of radical theories of presidential power threatens to change the system of government we have. But worse still, his administration's relentless, never-ending attempts to keep the nation in a state of fear can also change the kind of nation we are.

This isn't exactly new: many of America's most serious historical transgressions -- the internment of Japanese-Americans, McCarthyite witch hunts, World War I censorship laws, the Alien and Sedition Act -- have been the result of fear-driven, over-reaction to external threats, not under-reaction. Fear is a degrading toxin, and there's no doubt that it has been the primary fuel over the last decade. As the events of the last week demonstrate, it continues to spread rapidly, and it produces exactly the kind of citizenry about which John Adams long ago warned.


UPDATE
: Talking to one's friends and co-workers is not a reliable way of gauging public opinion on an issue. Those who want to claim that the media's hysteria over this incident is not matched by the general public's are going to have to explain this:

Quote:

Fifty-eight percent (58%) of U.S. voters say waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation techniques should be used to gain information from the terrorist who attempted to bomb an airliner on Christmas Day. . . . Seventy-one percent (71%) of all voters think the attempt by the Nigerian Muslim to blow up the airliner as it landed in Detroit should be investigated by military authorities as a terrorist act. Only 22% say it should be handled by civilian authorities as a criminal act, as is currently the case.

Does that sound like a calm and sober citizenry?

UPDATE II: On Fox News yesterday, Lt. Gen. Thomas McInerney (ret.) announces that he wants to strip search all Muslim males between the ages of 18-28, and explains that "political correctness" -- the only possible reason one might have to object to such a proposal -- is going to result in our mass slaughter at the hands of jihadists. It's hard to overstate -- or even fathom -- what happens to people who have sat there for years and ingested this sort of ugliness and panic.

http://www.salon.com/news/terrorism/ind ... 01/02/fear



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PostPosted: 01/03/10 5:19 am • # 2 
Brooks was on Meet the Press and made much the same point. I'm no fan of the guy, but in this case he is right on the mark.

The media is always hysterical and reactionary.

The republican party pretends that it hasn't been in power in 50 years and that every problem we face is the fault of the democrats.

The GOP is a fear based group. Without inciting fear, they have little chance of election.

I think the level of hysteria is America is much the same as what was faced by the passengers on the Titanic as it slowly sank into the sea.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 7:55 am • # 3 
Just as a matter of interest when is the proper time to be afraid of terrorism. Would it be ok to be afraid if you lived in Pakistan for instance.

I would say that most American citizen have some fear of terrorism that is if they have any feelings at all. I know that I do. Not that I dwell on it but to see the terriost attacks daily across the world causes me to fear. When I travel by air it does cross my mind and I do look more closely and my fellow travellers but I still travel and always will terriosts will not stop me but I do fear them.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 7:57 am • # 4 
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Ilenar wrote:
Just as a matter of interest when is the proper time to be afraid of terrorism. Would it be ok to be afraid if you lived in Pakistan for instance.

I would say that most American citizen have some fear of terrorism that is if they have any feelings at all. I know that I do. Not that I dwell on it but to see the terriost attacks daily across the world causes me to fear. When I travel by air it does cross my mind and I do look more closely and my fellow travellers but I still travel and always will terriosts will not stop me but I do fear them.

the proper time to fear terrorism is never.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 8:13 am • # 5 
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Ilenar wrote:
Just as a matter of interest when is the proper time to be afraid of terrorism. Would it be ok to be afraid if you lived in Pakistan for instance.

I would say that most American citizen have some fear of terrorism that is if they have any feelings at all. I know that I do. Not that I dwell on it but to see the terriost attacks daily across the world causes me to fear. When I travel by air it does cross my mind and I do look more closely and my fellow travellers but I still travel and always will terriosts will not stop me but I do fear them.
I feel strongly that people that live in some places in the world fear American terrorists. And for very good reasons.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 8:17 am • # 6 
If ever there were an article that clearly demonstrates more of the hypocrisy of the right, this is it. On the one hand, the right will vociferously claim that government can't do anything. But at the same time, they'll claim that only a rightwing government can keep you safe. They'll argue that government should get out of people's lives. That is of course unless it's a rightwing government. Then it's OK to invade peoples' privacy or strip them of their constitutional rights just to keep you safe. They'll wrap themselves in the flag while holding up a copy of the constitution, but they'll be the first to burn both (figuratively, of course) if it means keeping you safe.

The only people who can keep themselves safe are WE, THE PEOPLE. The outcome of this latest attack proves that...


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 8:28 am • # 7 
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Sidartha wrote:
If ever there were an article that clearly demonstrates more of the hypocrisy of the right, this is it. On the one hand, the right will vociferously claim that government can't do anything. But at the same time, they'll claim that only a rightwing government can keep you safe. They'll argue that government should get out of people's lives. That is of course unless it's a rightwing government. Then it's OK to invade peoples' privacy or strip them of their constitutional rights just to keep you safe. They'll wrap themselves in the flag while holding up a copy of the constitution, but they'll be the first to burn both (figuratively, of course) if it means keeping you safe.

The only people who can keep themselves safe are WE, THE PEOPLE. The outcome of this latest attack proves that...
the proper role of goverment is to lead. leadership requires bravery. what i see in the terror game is the opposite of leadership. it is a product (or tool of) disfunctional government.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 8:34 am • # 8 
It's a tool, mac. The product is subservience.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 8:45 am • # 9 
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Sidartha wrote:
It's a tool, mac. The product is subservience.

agreed.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 9:23 am • # 10 
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Ilenar wrote:
Just as a matter of interest when is the proper time to be afraid of terrorism. Would it be ok to be afraid if you lived in Pakistan for instance.

I would say that most American citizen have some fear of terrorism that is if they have any feelings at all. I know that I do. Not that I dwell on it but to see the terriost attacks daily across the world causes me to fear. When I travel by air it does cross my mind and I do look more closely and my fellow travellers but I still travel and always will terriosts will not stop me but I do fear them.

Ilenar, one of my all-time favorite quotes from Eleanor Roosevelt [one of my personal heroes] is: "Do one thing every day that scares you." ~ I feel varying degrees of fear frequently ~ I felt significant fear immediately following 09/11/01 and for months afterwards, especially when walking into Sears Tower ~ but i went to work every day ~ to be honest, and just like you, I think about 09/11/01 whenever it comes time to travel ~ but I still travel ~ we are all surrounded by terrorists and other fanatics of differing ilks ~ hate groups are flourishing everywhere ~ some hate gays, some hate Jews, some hate blacks, many hate Muslims, many hate those who need or perform abortions, many hate the rich, many hate the poor ~ I am a big believer that practicing and preaching hatred leads to eventual violence ~ but to me there is a HUGE difference between feeling fear and letting that feeling rule your life ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 10:55 am • # 11 
macroscopic wrote:
Ilenar wrote:
Just as a matter of interest when is the proper time to be afraid of terrorism. Would it be ok to be afraid if you lived in Pakistan for instance.

I would say that most American citizen have some fear of terrorism that is if they have any feelings at all. I know that I do. Not that I dwell on it but to see the terriost attacks daily across the world causes me to fear. When I travel by air it does cross my mind and I do look more closely and my fellow travellers but I still travel and always will terriosts will not stop me but I do fear them.

the proper time to fear terrorism is never.
Mac I dont know that you can never fear terriosim

My Grand Daughter was in London during the bomb blasts there and until we heard from her I was in great fear for her.Fortunatly she is a responsible young woman and got in touch with in an hour of the first bomb going off and told us that she had to walk to work and arrived safe and unharmed. She is still living there and I cannot help when I hear of any disturbance there to fear another terriost attack that could rob of us her.
Just being a silly grandmother.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 12:49 pm • # 12 
[b wrote:
Ilenar[/b]]Just as a matter of interest when is the proper time to be afraid of terrorism. Would it be ok to be afraid if you lived in Pakistan for instance.

I would say that most American citizen have some fear of terrorism that is if they have any feelings at all. I know that I do. Not that I dwell on it but to see the terriost attacks daily across the world causes me to fear. When I travel by air it does cross my mind and I do look more closely and my fellow travellers but I still travel and always will terriosts will not stop me but I do fear them.
Ilenar

I have pointed my feelings out some time ago about terrorists and I don't even give terrorism a bit of thought, since I have more important things to do... If you want to worry or be concerned about then so be it...


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 1:50 pm • # 13 
Oh good grief, mac and WWII. It's very natural to fear terrorists and terrorism. Illenar is not letting it consume her or run her life, just as sooz isn't. Since 9/11 a lot of people who thought we were immune here realize we aren't. Of course, sensible people never thought we were immune, although we were thinking more of our own homegrown terrorists. There are people in the world who want to hurt us. They want to destroy us. THEY can't destroy us but they can cause people to go crazy enough that we destroy ourselves. To think of 9/11 when you get on a plane is natural. Fear if you are in a crowd is natural since the terrorists would love to hit a crowd. Fear doesn't mean you crumble and cry and wet yourself. It means you are aware. We should all be more aware and alert. Alert and aware people on that plane prevented a disaster.

Saying you should never fear terrorism is absurd. Also, I seem to recall a while back that one of our members was fearing going to cities and reunions because a retired Marine friend was murdered. Fear is natural. What you do with that fear shows what kind of person you are.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 2:13 pm • # 14 
Being aware and alert is different from being fearful. In fact, I see them as being almost diametrically opposed. I could either drive my car in fear of what others may or may not do (and my response / lack of response) or I can drive being fully aware of others around me and alert to what they are doing and respond with confidence.

Taken in the context of terrorists and their acts: I can be fearful of them or aware and alert to the potential reality of being a victim of an attack. But to say I should live in fear of their potential attack is to encourage a useless response to something I am aware of being a real possibility. It's like saying I should live in fear of the next asteroid to hit the earth. I can't and won't live in fear of anything other than dying unloved.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 2:37 pm • # 15 
Lmao. Well, Sid, we define things differently. There will be other attacks. That's a fact. We don't know where or when. That's a fact. I certainly don't want to be wherever it is whenever it is. I don't want anyone to be wherever it is whenever it is. There are some targets we know they would love to hit. We know they love to blow up airplanes. Would I feel fear being at one of those targets or on a plane. You betcha. Does that fear change my behavior. Nope, just makes me more alert and aware in those situations. Do I live in fear. Nope. Do I feel some fear if someone I love is on a plane. You betcha. Does it change my behavior? Nope. Just makes me more aware and alert. Fear does not need to disable people. Any of our military people in combat who are honest will say they feel fear. They do their jobs anyway.

I've been helping some of the people at Fort Hood. They never had fear of something happening on base, but now it has happened. Do they feel fear? You betcha. We help the ones who are controlled by the fear. The ones who feel some fear and are now more alert and aware are fine. Do I feel fear when I'm there? You betcha. Does it change the way I behave? Nope.

On a plane, in a crowd situation like the super bowl, at Fort Hood where one of our own killed people and wounded more, you realize you are in a situation with potential. It makes you more aware and more alert, but it does not control you. You still do what you need to do as well as you ever have.

BTW, Sid, I never said anyone "should" live in fear of potential attack. I said feeling fear at times is normal. I could throw it back at you and say living in fear of dying unloved is useless. Live your life so you don't die unloved or live in fear of it.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 2:56 pm • # 16 
I don't know Katy... I just don't fear anything. As for fear of dying unloved, you're right - it's a useless fear - I have loved and I have been loved... no fear. When I lived in the big city (Toronto), I was mugged twice, my place was broken into several times (in different neigbourhoods) and I have been openly, physically attacked on downtown streets. I was accidently in the middle of the "poverty riots" at Queen's Park (Ontario's Capitol Building) and yes, I actually had to cause someone physical harm to protect myself. But in none of those incidents did I fear anything. I just responded - "fight or flight" - nothing else.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 3:11 pm • # 17 
Choosing fight over flight does not mean absence of fear. Also, many times the fear may show up later. We handle a situation and then after thinking about it realize how dangerous it was. If put nto the same circumstances again we may feel some fear. That does not mean we won't fight as we did before.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 5:31 pm • # 18 
I used to be a person who never feared anything then I was robbed at gun point while stopping to put gasoline in my car. It happened so fast I didn't have time to be afraid but for some time afterwards I would not put gas in my own car. I finally got mad at myself for having this fear and was determined that fear was not going to rule my life so I started pumping my own gas again. I have flown many times after 9/11 and I don't give terrorist a thought.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 5:53 pm • # 19 
Katy51 wrote:
Oh good grief, mac and WWII. It's very natural to fear terrorists and terrorism. Illenar is not letting it consume her or run her life, just as sooz isn't. Since 9/11 a lot of people who thought we were immune here realize we aren't. Of course, sensible people never thought we were immune, although we were thinking more of our own homegrown terrorists. There are people in the world who want to hurt us. They want to destroy us. THEY can't destroy us but they can cause people to go crazy enough that we destroy ourselves. To think of 9/11 when you get on a plane is natural. Fear if you are in a crowd is natural since the terrorists would love to hit a crowd. Fear doesn't mean you crumble and cry and wet yourself. It means you are aware. We should all be more aware and alert. Alert and aware people on that plane prevented a disaster.

Saying you should never fear terrorism is absurd. Also, I seem to recall a while back that one of our members was fearing going to cities and reunions because a retired Marine friend was murdered. Fear is natural. What you do with that fear shows what kind of person you are.
Katy51

I wrote a post to you ansswering this one and it did not take and went off into the wild blue yonder... Will see what happens to this one...

Cripes it made it...


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 6:19 pm • # 20 
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Ilenar wrote:
macroscopic wrote:
Ilenar wrote:
Just as a matter of interest when is the proper time to be afraid of terrorism. Would it be ok to be afraid if you lived in Pakistan for instance.

I would say that most American citizen have some fear of terrorism that is if they have any feelings at all. I know that I do. Not that I dwell on it but to see the terriost attacks daily across the world causes me to fear. When I travel by air it does cross my mind and I do look more closely and my fellow travellers but I still travel and always will terriosts will not stop me but I do fear them.

the proper time to fear terrorism is never.
Mac I dont know that you can never fear terriosim

My Grand Daughter was in London during the bomb blasts there and until we heard from her I was in great fear for her.Fortunatly she is a responsible young woman and got in touch with in an hour of the first bomb going off and told us that she had to walk to work and arrived safe and unharmed. She is still living there and I cannot help when I hear of any disturbance there to fear another terriost attack that could rob of us her.
Just being a silly grandmother.
i have never feared the terrorists. i am pretty sure it is possible for others to do so as well.

again, effective leadership appeals to BRAVERY (there is nothing to fear but fear itself, said a brave and great leader). ineffective leadership appeals to fear.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 6:27 pm • # 21 
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Katy51 wrote:
Oh good grief, mac and WWII. It's very natural to fear terrorists and terrorism.

i am not talking about what is natural, Katy. but again, i have NEVER feared them. NEVER.

Illenar is not letting it consume her or run her life, just as sooz isn't. Since 9/11 a lot of people who thought we were immune here realize we aren't. Of course, sensible people never thought we were immune, although we were thinking more of our own homegrown terrorists. There are people in the world who want to hurt us. They want to destroy us.


a rational response to their fear of being destroyed. and so it goes on.....forever and ever.

THEY can't destroy us but they can cause people to go crazy enough that we destroy ourselves.

that is actually not the goal of terrorism according to Pape, who has studied the matter enough to know. it is a shame that we dont appeal to men like him in the discussion.

To think of 9/11 when you get on a plane is natural.

not really. to think of the plane going down in flames for one of a thousand reasons might be, but 911 is an extremely rare incident. i think it is quite irrational to think of 911 when boarding a plane.

Fear if you are in a crowd is natural since the terrorists would love to hit a crowd. Fear doesn't mean you crumble and cry and wet yourself. It means you are aware. We should all be more aware and alert. Alert and aware people on that plane prevented a disaster.

Saying you should never fear terrorism is absurd.

if so, i fail to see how that absurdity has harmed me in any way. however, i can name you 1000 ways that its antithesis has harmed our nation, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

Also, I seem to recall a while back that one of our members was fearing going to cities and reunions because a retired Marine friend was murdered. Fear is natural. What you do with that fear shows what kind of person you are.

bingo. the thing to do with irrational fears is eradicate them so that they no longer shape your decisions. otherwise the terrorists have WON.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 6:30 pm • # 22 
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Sidartha wrote:
I don't know Katy... I just don't fear anything. As for fear of dying unloved, you're right - it's a useless fear - I have loved and I have been loved... no fear. When I lived in the big city (Toronto), I was mugged twice, my place was broken into several times (in different neigbourhoods) and I have been openly, physically attacked on downtown streets. I was accidently in the middle of the "poverty riots" at Queen's Park (Ontario's Capitol Building) and yes, I actually had to cause someone physical harm to protect myself. But in none of those incidents did I fear anything. I just responded - "fight or flight" - nothing else.

you cant protect yourself against random acts of cruelty. it is better to just live your life without fear, given that fact, and hope for the best. that is not the same as assuming major risks isodoing, btw. just normal ones.


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PostPosted: 01/03/10 7:13 pm • # 23 
macroscopic wrote:
Katy51 wrote:
Oh good grief, mac and WWII. It's very natural to fear terrorists and terrorism.

i am not talking about what is natural, Katy. but again, i have NEVER feared them. NEVER.
Illenar is not letting it consume her or run her life, just as sooz isn't. Since 9/11 a lot of people who thought we were immune here realize we aren't. Of course, sensible people never thought we were immune, although we were thinking more of our own homegrown terrorists. There are people in the world who want to hurt us. They want to destroy us.


a rational response to their fear of being destroyed. and so it goes on.....forever and ever.

You are saying 9/11 was a rational response and our fault?

THEY can't destroy us but they can cause people to go crazy enough that we destroy ourselves.

that is actually not the goal of terrorism according to Pape, who has studied the matter enough to know. it is a shame that we dont appeal to men like him in the discussion.

I do think their goal is to cause chaos and make us do stupid things. We did exactly what they wanted after 9/11. Pape has his opinion, whatever it is, based on his studies. Others have their own.

To think of 9/11 when you get on a plane is natural.

not really. to think of the plane going down in flames for one of a thousand reasons might be, but 911 is an extremely rare incident. i think it is quite irrational to think of 911 when boarding a plane.

I disagree. I think it is quite natural these days to see a plane as a potential terrorist target, along wth the other fears and anxieties about flying.

Fear if you are in a crowd is natural since the terrorists would love to hit a crowd. Fear doesn't mean you crumble and cry and wet yourself. It means you are aware. We should all be more aware and alert. Alert and aware people on that plane prevented a disaster.

Saying you should never fear terrorism is absurd.

if so, i fail to see how that absurdity has harmed me in any way. however, i can name you 1000 ways that its antithesis has harmed our nation, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

Of course telling people you should never fear terrorism has not hurt you. The natural fear of being a target under certain conditions or getting on a plane, that is with you, but doesn't control you, is not what harmed our nation. Politicians who exploited the fear or who were too cowardly to stand up on principle harmed us. Amazing how some people fear people like Rush but think it stupid to fear terrorists.

Also, I seem to recall a while back that one of our members was fearing going to cities and reunions because a retired Marine friend was murdered. Fear is natural. What you do with that fear shows what kind of person you are.

bingo. the thing to do with irrational fears is eradicate them so that they no longer shape your decisions. otherwise the terrorists have WON.

There is no bingo. I believe all of us who have posted have stated clearly that the fear does not and should not control our lives. The thing we disagree on, mac, is that the fear is irrational. The fear doesn't shape our decisions. However, there are people who want to harm us and will use planes and go after crowds on subways, etc. To feel fear or anxiety when in places known to be targets is natural.

The terrorists do not win because we feel fear or anxiety. They only win when we continue to do things that go against our principles. People like Bush didn't do his evil because of fear. He did it because the opportunity was there to get rid of some of his enemies and no one stopped him.


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PostPosted: 01/04/10 5:21 am • # 24 
[b wrote:
Katy51[/b]]Oh good grief, mac and WWII. It's very natural to fear terrorists and terrorism. Illenar is not letting it consume her or run her life, just as sooz isn't. Since 9/11 a lot of people who thought we were immune here realize we aren't. Of course, sensible people never thought we were immune, although we were thinking more of our own homegrown terrorists. There are people in the world who want to hurt us. They want to destroy us. THEY can't destroy us but they can cause people to go crazy enough that we destroy ourselves. To think of 9/11 when you get on a plane is natural. Fear if you are in a crowd is natural since the terrorists would love to hit a crowd. Fear doesn't mean you crumble and cry and wet yourself. It means you are aware. We should all be more aware and alert. Alert and aware people on that plane prevented a disaster.

Saying you should never fear terrorism is absurd. Also, I seem to recall a while back that one of our members was fearing going to cities and reunions because a retired Marine friend was murdered. Fear is natural. What you do with that fear shows what kind of person you are.
Katy51

As I indicated earlier yesterday, I lost my comments to you... Will make a copy of this and try to rebuild what I lost from memory...

In regards to your last paragraph, it was me that had a concern, but not with Terrorists... My retired Marine friend was killed by local folks needing money, and during this day and age, this will happen quite frequently as time goes on....

Regarding my stance on Terrorist, I still do never think of terrorists as I travel this country and it is the last thing on my mind... I am real concerned about my Friends and folks in real trouble while we travel through this terrible recession...

Keep your last Paragraph in mind as I state this situation... I was very concerned about the many people of this country, since I do travel a lot as stated and I recently drove my convertible to the West Coast and was alone and stayed in many Motels as well as at friends place... I visited California, Oregon, Wyoming, Colorado, Nebraska & Nevada to attend a WW2 Marine Corps Division reunion of 5 days... Incidentally, the Circus/ Circus could remove over 60% of their machines and tables, since they don't seem to need them... Note, I even had the top down in all the States mentioned...

I don't worry about terrorism in any way, since i have so many other thing's that are more important to me... We have the CIA, FBI, Local Police, Sheriff's department and State Police along with Homeland Security and they are the ones that has to be real concerned... We recently found out how good Homeland Security is... Yes, it is time to worry if your responsible for many folks, but I don't really think that we can ever control terrorism...


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PostPosted: 01/04/10 5:22 am • # 25 
Katy - Two different kinds of fear and probably neither is actually fear. Whenever my 25-year old son travels on a long highway trip, a plane, anything I have a fear based in concern for his safety. Is that a fear that terrorists will kill him? It's rolled in there in a minor role, but it more just concern for his safety.

I don't think anyone is physically afraid of Rush. I actually think I could take him. This is a hatemonger stirring the pot fear. I think the hatemongers are playing a huge role in promoting a civil divide by promoting hate in the country. The terrorists provided a catalyst. We didn't so much have the commies to hate after the cold war, so we needed a new target. So now it's the terrorists we can hate with impunity. Bush helped to merge in there all Muslims and foreigners by lashing out at Saddam. Bin Laden attacked us, but by attacking Saddam he showed that any Muslim/Middle Easterner would do. This one seems like religious intolerance, hate of anyone different, and then lastly fear of the actual terrorist.

More later


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