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PostPosted: 01/17/10 6:16 am • # 1 
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This is a HUGE case with HUGE consequences ~ I am rabidly in favor of "erring" on the side of protecting children ~ I have zero/zilch/NO compassion for any violent sexual predator, and even less for those who prey on children ~ and I would not lose any sleep if every violent sexual predator were, at a minimum, locked up forever ~ Sooz


U.S. Supreme Court: Throwing away the key for sex offenders?

Published: Jan. 17, 2010 at 3:30 AM
By MICHAEL KIRKLAND

WASHINGTON, Jan. 17 (UPI) -- The U.S. Supreme Court, after hearing argument last week, is set to decide whether the U.S. government has the power to commit indefinitely any federal prisoner who shows signs of being a sexual predator.

The issue is not whether it is a good idea to keep someone behind bars after serving a sentence but who has committed no new crime -- though there is considerable disagreement about the wisdom of such a policy. The issue is whether the federal government is usurping the power of the states.

The need to control sexual predators in some fashion seems to be compelling. In case after case, the same set of depressing facts ends in tragedy, such as the case of 11-year-old Sarah Foxwell in Maryland last month.

A child disappears, sometimes from her own bedroom. There is a frantic search. A registered sex offender is arrested. The child is found dead.

In the Foxwell case, the Wicomico County sheriff has promised to seek the death penalty against the suspect, Thomas Leggs Jr., 30, of Salisbury, Md. But nothing will bring the child back.

The case of 6-year-old Adam Walsh shocked the conscience of the nation in 1981. He disappeared while shopping with his mother in Hollywood, Fla. Only his head was later recovered. A convicted serial killer, who died in prison of natural causes in 1996, was blamed but never charged with the crime.

The boy's father, John Walsh, went on to host television's "America's Most Wanted," often cited by the FBI as being instrumental in helping to catch violent killers.

In 2006, President George W. Bush signed the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act, which among other things allows "the federal government to place in indefinite civil commitment 'sexually dangerous' persons," a federal appeals court said. The civil commitment procedures are not limited to prisoners convicted of sexual offenses, but can be applied to any prisoner in federal custody who has a history of illegal sexual conduct or attempts at such conduct.

So far, the commitment provisions of the federal act have been sparsely applied. Of the 15,000 or so federal prisoners with a history of sexual offenses, only about 100 have faced commitment procedures. But the program could be rapidly expanded in the face of public pressure.

In January 2009, an appeals court panel in Richmond, Va., said the act's provision granted "the federal government unprecedented authority over civil commitment -- an area long controlled by the states." The appeals court panel agreed with a federal judge that the provision "exceeds the limits of congressional power and intrudes on the powers reserved to the states." The Obama administration then asked the Supreme Court for review.

About 20 states have civil commitment laws to continue to imprison sexual predators after they have served their sentences.

In 1997's Kansas vs. Hendricks, the Supreme Court ruled 5-4 that the Kansas Sexually Violent Predator Act -- which sets up procedures for the civil commitment of persons who due to a "mental abnormality" or a "personality disorder" are likely to engage in "predatory acts of sexual violence" -- did not violate the "due process," or fair proceedings, guarantee of the Constitution.

But in 2002's Kansas vs. Crane, the high court ruled 7-2 that Kansas and other states must make some determination that a sexual predator cannot control his behavior when committing someone to an indefinite term.

The Supreme Court heard argument last week in the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act challenge. The dispute is making for some strange bedfellows.

The Obama administration, represented by Solicitor General Elena Kagan, aggressively defended the federal act in argument. The administration's brief to the high court, defining who is eligible for civil commitment, said "the term 'sexually dangerous person' requires the government to make two showings (to a federal judge) by 'clear and convincing evidence.' ... First, the government must prove that the (prisoner) has previously 'engaged or attempted to engage in sexually violent conduct or child molestation.' ... Second, the government must prove 'that the person suffers from a serious mental illness, abnormality, or disorder as a result of which he would have serious difficulty in refraining from sexually violent conduct or child molestation if released.'"

The committed prisoner can request regular re-evaluation at six-month intervals, but the commitment can be open-ended.

The government's argument relies, not on the ubiquitous Commerce Clause -- which gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce and is used to underwrite a broad category of federal laws -- but the Necessary and Proper Clause of the Constitution: "The Congress shall have power ... (to) make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States. ... "

Besides the Obama administration, 31 state attorneys general told the Supreme Court they support the federal act.

On the right, the American Enterprise Institute says the case "represents an opportunity for the (Supreme) Court to help restore federal power to proper constitutional limits."

The AEI urges the self-styled Tea Party protesters -- a loose coalition of protesters and bloggers who oppose big government and President Barack Obama -- to join the fight.

The conservative think tank said sex offenders should be committed, but, "Given how poorly federal policy has performed in many areas, one wonders whether things might be better if Congress had less on its regulatory plate. The (Supreme) Court should take this opportunity to rebuke Congress's gluttony by preventing it from meddling in areas that lawfully belong to the states."

And not everyone agrees that recidivism is inevitable for sexual offenders. In 2008, columnist Carl Bialik wrote in The Wall Street Journal: "It's common to hear claims that (past sexual offenders are) sure to commit more sex crimes. ... But ... the numbers don't bear this out. Recidivism rates vary widely depending on which crimes are counted, the time frame of the studies and whether repeat offenses are defined by convictions, arrests or self-reporting. But even the author of a widely published report suggesting a recidivism rate of 52 percent, Wisconsin psychologist Dennis Doren, told me of the notion that all sex criminals are likely to re-offend, 'There is no research support for that view, period.'"

But such questions are not part of the current debate. No court, not even the Supreme Court, wants to appear timid or soft when it comes to those who prey on children or the defenseless. The question is only which level of government will do the committing.

In argument last week, even normally conservative justices who usually question the usurpation of state rights by the federal government seemed to agree with the Obama administration.

Only Justice Antonin Scalia, a variety of observers agree, questioned the constitutionality of the Adam Walsh Act from the bench.

The justices should hand down a decision in the case, U.S. vs. Comstock et al, sometime before the summer recess begins in late June.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/01/ ... 263717000/


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 6:37 am • # 2 
The definition of sex offender has to be tightened up. An under aged (say seventeen) teenager having consensual sex with his equally under aged girlfriend gets tagged with the same sex offender tag as someone who preys on kids. This was in the news some months back. That seventeen year old is, I believe, still in prison and frankly should not be.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 6:59 am • # 3 
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glitterypickles539 wrote:
The definition of sex offender has to be tightened up. An under aged (say seventeen) teenager having consensual sex with his equally under aged girlfriend gets tagged with the same sex offender tag as someone who preys on kids. This was in the news some months back. That seventeen year old is, I believe, still in prison and frankly should not be.

straight up. an exhibitionist doesn't make the cut for me either. neither does someone who bought a sex toy in Alabama.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 7:04 am • # 4 
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I agree, in theory, with both pic and Mac ~ but I don't see any of those examples falling within the definition of "violent sexual predator" ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 8:55 am • # 5 
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I'd also voice some very serious objections to the "any federal prisoner who shows signs of being a sexual predator"


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 9:52 am • # 6 
That's the "thin edge of the wedge"...


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 10:07 am • # 7 
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Not a far remove from criminilizing thoughts.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 2:17 pm • # 8 
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sooz08 wrote:
I agree, in theory, with both pic and Mac ~ but I don't see any of those examples falling within the definition of "violent sexual predator" ~

Sooz

i was thinking about the RSO list, sooz.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 2:51 pm • # 9 

People who prey on children are usually well behaved prisoners. They are cowards around anyone who can defend themself.

People who have a need to expose themselves to children are a danger because many times that is just the begnning. I do think they belong on the watch out list. You expose yourself to me, I say no big deal. You expose yourself to a child I want it cut off.



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PostPosted: 01/17/10 3:27 pm • # 10 
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Katy51 wrote:

People who prey on children are usually well behaved prisoners. They are cowards around anyone who can defend themself.

People who have a need to expose themselves to children are a danger because many times that is just the begnning. I do think they belong on the watch out list. You expose yourself to me, I say no big deal. You expose yourself to a child I want it cut off.

it had not even occured to me that an exhibitionist would expose himself to a child.

but in addition, i would like to point out that peeing by a roadside is considered exhibitionism in the US, whereas it most other parts of the world it is not. so the standard is exceptionally low. the prospect of being put on an RSO list for having the misfortune of an overstuffed bladder is, i am sure you will agree, absurd.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 3:41 pm • # 11 
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i would like to point out that peeing by a roadside is considered exhibitionism in the US, whereas it most other parts of the world it is not

You should see the hordes of American visitors to the Munich Oktoberfest. Nothing like a stein or two of good Munich beer in order to forget all your learned manors, especially when the waiting time at the restroom exceeds 15 minutes.
No kids were ever harmed. Image


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 3:52 pm • # 12 
ex⋅hi⋅bi⋅tion⋅ism   
-noun
1. a tendency to display one's abilities or to behave in such a way as to attract attention.
2. Psychiatry. a disorder characterized esp. by a compulsion to exhibit the genitals in public.


It's the deliberate showing of the genitals to others. I don't think peeing on the roadside fits that criteria. I do however find the guys who pee on the roadside or anywhere where others will see (except in restrooms) disgusting.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 4:13 pm • # 13 
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jabra2 wrote:
i would like to point out that peeing by a roadside is considered exhibitionism in the US, whereas it most other parts of the world it is not

You should see the hordes of American visitors to the Munich Oktoberfest. Nothing like a stein or two of good Munich beer in order to forget all your learned manors, especially when the waiting time at the restroom exceeds 15 minutes.
No kids were ever harmed. Image
HAHAHAHAHA


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 4:19 pm • # 14 
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Katy51 wrote:
ex⋅hi⋅bi⋅tion⋅ism   
-noun
1. a tendency to display one's abilities or to behave in such a way as to attract attention.
2. Psychiatry. a disorder characterized esp. by a compulsion to exhibit the genitals in public.


It's the deliberate showing of the genitals to others. I don't think peeing on the roadside fits that criteria. I do however find the guys who pee on the roadside or anywhere where others will see (except in restrooms) disgusting.
i am not talking about the clinical definition of exhibitionism, Katy. i am quite familiar with it. i was making a point that, like other so called "sex offenses", exhibitionism has a radically different standard in this country than in others. ditto for cohabitation, "sodomy" (which, i might point out, applies just as easily to a woman giving her husband a blowjob, or even [gasp] masturbation!, as it does to any other act in those statutes), and a hundred other things that land people on the RSO list. but truthfully, i think the RSO list is a POS. i should have just started there.


Last edited by macroscopic on 01/17/10 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 01/17/10 5:08 pm • # 15 
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We need to think very long and hard about locking people up, past their release dates, for the rest of their lives, on the prospect that we just don't trust them very much. If we feel that way, then make the original crime a mandatory life sentence, requiring incontrovertible physical evidence.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 5:09 pm • # 16 
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Florida Banishes Man for Public Urination

It's no secret that some convicted sex offenders are guilty of nothing more than being a teenager and messing around with a slightly younger teenager. See here, and here, and here, and here. But as travesties of justice go, I just learned of an even more incredible one.

Juan Matamoros's full bladder is going to cost him. Twenty-one years ago, he had too much to drink, and was caught when he urinated on a street in Essex, Massachusetts. Matamoros was charged with "lewd and lascivious behavior" - which apparently got him classified as a sex offender. He currently lives in Deltona, Florida, with his wife and two young sons, but he's been ordered to pack up and move.

Deltona's ordinance, stricter than those of the state and neighboring cities, prohibits sex offenders and sexual predators from living within 2,500 feet of a school, bus stop, day-care center, park or playground. Matamoros lives on Brady Drive near three city parks, including Dewey Boster Park and a child-care facility.

The 49-year-old took the stand before Volusia County Judge Peter Marshall in DeLand on Monday to say he never molested anyone back in 1986, but just got drunk and urinated at the side of a car along a Massachusetts street when three people passed by and saw him. He requested he not have to move his two young sons to an area with a concentrated number of sex offenders.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 5:20 pm • # 17 
Well, mac, you only said exhibitionism originally. Yes we do need clarification in the laws and in our own communications.

Mac said ""sodomy" (which, i might point out, applies just as easily to a woman giving her husband a blowjob, or even [gasp] masturbation!, as it does to any other act in those statutes)"

What is YOUR definition of sodomy, mac? Here, it is the genitals of one person touching the mouth or anus of another. I don't see that masturbation fits that.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 5:29 pm • # 18 
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Katy51 wrote:
Well, mac, you only said exhibitionism originally.
no i didn't. i ALSO said "sex toy in Alabama", if you will recall. those are called EXAMPLES. and i stand by them.

again- just to be clear- my point is that totally stupid s(*t can land you on the RSO list, Katy. that would include everything else i mentioned.

Mac said ""sodomy" (which, i might point out, applies just as easily to a woman giving her husband a blowjob, or even [gasp] masturbation!, as it does to any other act in those statutes)"
What is YOUR definition of sodomy, mac?

the most liberal definition is "unnatural sex". this would include anal, oral, and all other sorts of sex not intended for procreation. do you really want a complete list, or will that suffice? Image

Here, it is the genitals of one person touching the mouth or anus of another.

the legal definitions go well beyond that. however, since it is technically "on topic", i will add them below.

I don't see that masturbation fits that.

sodomy has such a broad legal definition, depending on state, that i believe wearing diapers for the fun of it would qualify in some states.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 5:36 pm • # 19 

wearng diapers would qualify as sodomy? lol. Please tell me in what states that is sodomy.

Mac, you originally just said exhibitionism without qualification.

No, mac, here the legal definition is exactly what I said and was only applied to same sex people. That's why it was found unconstitutional.



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PostPosted: 01/17/10 5:43 pm • # 20 
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Arizona: A person who knowingly and without force commits, in any unnatural manner, any lewd or lascivious act upon or with the body or any part or member thereof of a male or female adult, with the intent of arousing, appealing to or gratifying the lust, passion or sexual desires of either of such persons.

in Arizona, cohabitation is also considered sodomy: A person who lives in a state of open and notorious cohabitation or adultery

in Arkansas, what most call beastiality is called sodomy. in addition, blowjobs are sodomy, regardless of marital status:
(a) A person commits sodomy if such person performs any act of sexual gratification involving:
(1) The penetration, however slight, of the anus or mouth of an animal or a person by the penis of a person

Florida: Whoever commits any unnatural and lascivious act with another person. Whoever lives in an open state of adultery

Georgia: beastiality, as well as jacking someone off: A person, including a masseur or masseuse, commits the offense of masturbation for hire when he erotically stimulates the genital organs of another, whether resulting in orgasm or not, by manual or other bodily contact exclusively of sexual intercourse or by instrumental manipulation for money of the substantial equivalent thereof.

in Georgia, it is also illegal to fornicate, under same statute: (a) An unmarried person commits the offense of fornication when he voluntarily has sexual intercourse with another person

ditto for Idaho: Any unmarried person who shall have sexual intercouse with an unmarried person of the opposite sex shall be deemed guilty of fornication

___________________________________________________________________________________

i could go on and on, Katy. but i think you see the pattern. any sort of sex that is not between married couples intending on having babies is considered sodomy by some know nothing somewhere. there is no end to the amount of control the church wants over our bodies. sadly, IN MANY CASES, this comes with the blessing of the state.


Last edited by macroscopic on 01/17/10 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 01/17/10 5:46 pm • # 21 
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Katy51 wrote:

wearng diapers would qualify as sodomy? lol. Please tell me in what states that is sodomy.

if it was done for "sexual reasons", yes. the Arizona statute is worded broadly enough to qualify. so is the Florida statute.

Mac, you originally just said exhibitionism without qualification.

i believe i also mentioned sex toys, Katy. that was in post #3. but again, there is no statute for "exhibitionism" in most states. they are categorized as "lewd conduct". that is the same statute that was used to prosecute that poor bastard who is on the RSO list in Florida, above.

No, mac, here the legal definition is exactly what I said and was only applied to same sex people. That's why it was found unconstitutional.

no, Katy. the statutes CLEARLY include members of the opposite sex. see fornication and cohabitation laws listed above, which are in the sodomy statutes.



Last edited by macroscopic on 01/17/10 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 01/17/10 5:49 pm • # 22 
I don't see wearing diapers anywhere. It seems to me they all are talking about sex between people (or in some cases animals), not sex with yourself or things like wearing diapers.

I don't need lessons from you, mac. I am asking specific questions about specific things you said.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 5:51 pm • # 23 
ok , mac, you are not even trying to read my posts, so I'm done.

BTW, when I say here, I mean Texas. So, stop trying to correct me.


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PostPosted: 01/17/10 6:06 pm • # 24 
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Katy51 wrote:
I don't see wearing diapers anywhere. It seems to me they all are talking about sex between people (or in some cases animals), not sex with yourself or things like wearing diapers.

i think the Florida statute is plenty wide for it. this is the same state that puts you on the RSO list for peeing in public.

well, if nothing else, you now know that you can be arrested in Alabama for giving a BJ to your husband, and that would land you on the RSO list.

i learned a couple of things tonight, too.

I don't need lessons from you, mac. I am asking specific questions about specific things you said.

of course not, Katy. i am a bit tired tonight, however, and i still have a lot of work to do. so, forgive me for being grumpy.


Last edited by macroscopic on 01/17/10 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 01/17/10 6:10 pm • # 25 
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Katy51 wrote:
ok , mac, you are not even trying to read my posts, so I'm done.

BTW, when I say here, I mean Texas. So, stop trying to correct me.

you never said TX, so i assumed that you meant the US, which is what i thought we were talking about. i think you are mistaking simple misunderstandings for "not trying".

and yes, sodomy laws in Texas and (13) other states were overturned by the SCOTUS in 2003 (Lawrence -vs- Texas). you are now free to use a vibrator in your own home. God Bless America. Image


Last edited by macroscopic on 01/17/10 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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