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PostPosted: 11/29/10 8:22 am • # 1 
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Since prior rejections apparently didn't serve as 'teaching moments' for the obsessed, I'm betting this rejection won't discourage other 'birther' challenges ~ Sooz

Justices turn aside another challenge over Obama's citizenship

By Bill Mears, CNN Supreme Court Producer
November 29, 2010 10:42 a.m. EST

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
    [*]The Supreme Court rejects latest appeal without comment [*]The challenge contends both a president's parents must be U.S. citizens [*]It says Obama's father was a British citizen[/list]

Washington (CNN) -- The Supreme Court has again cast aside an appeal that raised doubts about President Barack Obama's U.S. citizenship, a grass-roots legal issue that has gained little legal or political footing, but continues to persist in the courts.

The justices without comment Monday rejected a challenge from Charles Kerchner Jr., a Pennsylvania man who sought a trial in federal court forcing the president to produce documents regarding his birth and citizenship.

Kerchner's attorney, Mario Apuzzo, had argued in a petition with the Supreme Court that Obama did not fit the definition of a "natural-born citizen" required for the nation's highest office, as defined by Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution.

That clause states, "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

Kerchner, a retired military officer who describes himself on his website as a "genetic genealogy pioneer," argues the framers of the 1789 document intended a "natural-born" citizen to mean someone born in the U.S. to parents who were both American citizens.

The high court and other courts had dismissed earlier, unrelated lawsuits from individuals questioning Obama's citizenship. State birth certificate records show he was born August 4, 1961, in Honolulu, Hawaii. His mother is a native of Kansas; his father was born in Kenya, which at the time was a British colony.

"A person gains allegiance and loyalty and therefore attachment for a nation from either being born on the soil of the community defining that nation or from being born to parents who were also born on that same soil or who naturalized as though they were born on that soil," said Apuzzo. "It is only by combining at birth in the child both means to inherit these two sources of citizenship that the child by nature and therefore also by law is born with only one allegiance and loyalty to and consequently attachment for only the United States."

He said it was "undisputed fact" Obama's father was a citizen of the British crown.

The Obama administration did not file, and the high court did not demand, a formal government response to this latest legal claim. The high court will often insist the Justice Department weigh in with its views on a particular constitutional issue, or when it is being sued, and that is a sign the justices are seriously considering accepting the appeal.

Obama and his staff produced copies of his birth certificate when he was running for president in 2008, and have previously dismissed questions over his citizenship.

Other legal claims on the citizenship question whether Obama was in fact born in the United States, and whether his birth documents are authentic.

Among the issues the high court has refused to fully address in these appeals involves "standing," whether individual Americans can bring such a lawsuit, by first establishing personal, direct "harm" or "injury" from having Obama occupy the White House. Overcoming that legal hurdle would allow such suits to proceed on the merits in courts.

Some of the claims of various "birther" movement organizers insist the president was born in Kenya or Indonesia; that his birth certificate is a forgery; and that he had dual American-British citizenship at birth because of his father's Kenyan heritage and therefore is not a "natural born" citizen.

The case is Kerchner v. Obama (10-446).

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/11/29/ ... index.html



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PostPosted: 11/29/10 8:43 am • # 2 
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A totally dumbass argument.
Reckon it means George Washington and several other Presidents weren't legit either since they were either born in "British Colonies" and their parents were NOT US citizens.


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PostPosted: 11/29/10 5:28 pm • # 3 
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"A person gains allegiance and loyalty and therefore attachment for a nation from either being born on the soil of the community defining that nation or from being born to parents who were also born on that same soil or who naturalized as though they were born on that soil," said Apuzzo.

that's right.  Apuzzo said that.  but the constitution doesn't, and neither does the US Code (which is the flesh on the bones of the constitution).

furthermore, it is not what case law says.  the SCOTUS has heard a case that dealt with this issue directly in 1896.  the majority ruled that a person only need be born here, OR have one parent be a citizen to be "natural" or "native" born.  this case addressed not only the constitution, but the SPECIFIC WORDING of the statute cited.

these people are out of their minds.


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PostPosted: 11/29/10 5:29 pm • # 4 
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oskar576 wrote:
A totally dumbass argument.
Reckon it means George Washington and several other Presidents weren't legit either since they were either born in "British Colonies" and their parents were NOT US citizens.

this actually has a constitutional argument, as well.  the statute in question states that they are citizens "at time of adoption"- a nice little escape clause for colonists.


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PostPosted: 11/29/10 5:31 pm • # 5 
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my interest in Orly Taitz led me all the way down this dusty trail.

if anyone is interested, i can cite the specific parts of the US Code that grant Obama natural born status.

again: there is nothing in the constitution the requires both parents to be born here, and the term "natural born" or "native born" is meant to distinguish the path to citizenship from those that are "NATURALIZED".


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PostPosted: 11/29/10 5:38 pm • # 6 
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Kerchner, a retired military officer who describes himself on his website as a "genetic genealogy pioneer," argues the framers of the 1789 document intended a "natural-born" citizen to mean someone born in the U.S. to parents who were both American citizens.


.......a position which has absolutely ZERO basis in US Law.  there have been half a dozen citizenship trials in the US that went to higher courts.  every one of them found that a person is either a citizen by birthright simply from being born in US territory, OR being born of US "parentage".  the latest interpretation of this latter term came into effect BEFORE Obama was born.  therefore, it is irrelevant whether he was born in Hawaii, Mongolia, Kenya or Antarctica- and it doesn't matter whether his dad was American, Indonesian, Kenyan, or Eskimo.  his mom was a US citizen.  nobody has EVER argued otherwise.  therefore Obama is.

period.


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PostPosted: 11/29/10 5:54 pm • # 7 
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Some of the claims of various "birther" movement organizers insist the president was born in Kenya or Indonesia; that his birth certificate is a forgery; and that he had dual American-British citizenship at birth because of his father's Kenyan heritage and therefore is not a "natural born" citizen.

i don't think there is any point arguing with these people that he was born in Hawaii.  that is why i choose to argue the basis if their point.

there is nothing in US law that states that a "natural born" citizen has to be born IN the US, to begin with.
and there is nothing which suggests that he has to be born of US parentS, either.

so, on the one hand we have the birther's interpretation, which is not bourne out by anything in law.
and on the other hand, we have the 14th amendment, the interpretation of many federal judges, and the US code.

it seems to me scurrilous that one would use the constitution to make a case for Obama not being a US citizen, and at the same time disregard it and it's supporting law in making that case.


Last edited by macroscopic on 11/29/10 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 11/30/10 2:32 am • # 8 
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There's something sort of new in this argument, though, and that's the idea that allegiance is somehow linked to soil ("the soil of the community").  It"s an extra-Constitutional argument, almost to say that the Constitutional definition of citizenship is too weak. And another wrinkle that you don't usually see in this argument is this idea: "...by nature and therefore also by law... ". He presumes not only to interpret the law, but also to define the concept of law itself.  The guy is seriously arrogant.


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 2:42 am • # 9 
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I was curious about the "14 years" qualification. It turns out that it was put there in order to qualify Washington as President: 1775-1789 is 14 years.


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 4:49 am • # 10 
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oskar576 wrote:
I was curious about the "14 years" qualification. It turns out that it was put there in order to qualify Washington as President: 1775-1789 is 14 years.

the constitution was ratified in 1787.


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 4:51 am • # 11 
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macroscopic wrote:
oskar576 wrote:
I was curious about the "14 years" qualification. It turns out that it was put there in order to qualify Washington as President: 1775-1789 is 14 years.

the constitution was ratified in 1787.
But there was no "official" President until 1789.

  


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 4:57 am • # 12 
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oskar576 wrote:
macroscopic wrote:
oskar576 wrote:
I was curious about the "14 years" qualification. It turns out that it was put there in order to qualify Washington as President: 1775-1789 is 14 years.

the constitution was ratified in 1787.
But there was no "official" President until 1789.

  

not following you, but that's ok.  it is likely just me.


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 5:06 am • # 13 
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grampatom wrote:
There's something sort of new in this argument, though, and that's the idea that allegiance is somehow linked to soil ("the soil of the community").  It"s an extra-Constitutional argument, almost to say that the Constitutional definition of citizenship is too weak. And another wrinkle that you don't usually see in this argument is this idea: "...by nature and therefore also by law... ". He presumes not only to interpret the law, but also to define the concept of law itself.  The guy is seriously arrogant.
it is actually not new, gramps- it is how the 14th amendment works, and it is also a vestige of old English Law.  it basically says that anyone that is born on soverign soil is a SUBJECT of the crown.  this language was dispensed with by the founders in favor of the more independent rank of citizen.

what is interesting about the birther argument is that they claim there is a distinction between normal citizenship by birth, and that of a president.  this distinction has never been legally upheld.

a natural born citizen, as defined since Reformation, is one EITHER born on US soil OR to at least one parent who is a citizen of the US, and resident here for some minimum number of years.

the birthers are trying to make a distinction between "natural born" and what Obama is.  but if Obama is not natural born, what is he?


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 5:10 am • # 14 
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but if Obama is not natural born, what is he?

Un-aborted? [img]/domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif[/img]


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 5:11 am • # 15 
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by the way, folks- just to let you know- Obama is not a UNIQUE target in this sense. there have been at least a half dozen presidents that faced this nonsense in history, some of whom had distinctly MORE baggage to overcome than Obama.


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 5:12 am • # 16 
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oskar576 wrote:
but if Obama is not natural born, what is he?

Un-aborted? [img]/domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif[/img]

yeah.  honestly, i wish someone would ask those people this.  there are really only two classifications of citizen in the US.  but maybe there is some third one that they think Obama belongs to???  i dunno.


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 10:46 am • # 17 
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They appear to believe that he was un-naturally born.


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 10:50 am • # 18 
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it is actually not new, gramps- it is how the 14th amendment works, and it is also a vestige of old English Law.  it basically says that anyone that is born on soverign soil is a SUBJECT of the crown.  this language was dispensed with by the founders in favor of the more independent rank of citizen.

New to me, anyhow, an explicit connection between citizenship, allegiance and dirt.


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 3:06 pm • # 19 
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grampatom wrote:
They appear to believe that he was un-naturally born.

yeah.  i think they would say that he is a "citizen by birth" but not "naturally born".

this is rather like saying that you have a bag of the visible fruit of a member of the family Fragaria, but not a strawberry.


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 7:09 pm • # 20 


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PostPosted: 11/30/10 8:58 pm • # 21 
Blew him out of the water!!!


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PostPosted: 12/01/10 2:56 am • # 22 
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Blew him out of the water!!!
Anderson might have let him off the hook if he hadn't come right out of his corner with that stupid comment about having "white hair" and being old. Did you see the look on Anderson's face? He was like "white hair...oh hell no you didn't".

Apparently Representative Berman learned to debate on some of these one-sided partisan internet discussion boards.  The argument from ignorance rarely works, but it never works when one's opponent is not ignorant.


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PostPosted: 12/01/10 3:10 am • # 23 
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Maybe "birthers" are genetic accidents?


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