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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 4:17 am • # 1 
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I'm not particularly happy about this but I believe the extension of unemployment benefits is critical enough on its own to warrant this deal ~ if other middle-class tax breaks are preserved, so much the better ~ I very much want ratification of the new START treaty to be included as well ~ for me, anyone who would willingly deliver a death sentence to millions [struggling thanks to prior R policies and during the winter no less] strictly as a political ploy to reward the mega wealthy is a beast and beneath contempt ~ Sooz

TAX DEAL TAKES SHAPE.... Negotiations between White House officials and congressional leaders continued through the weekend, and by all accounts, the "broad contours of a compromise" are coming into focus.

An agreement is not yet in place, and details are not yet final, but we're basically looking at a deal in which Republicans would get a two-year extension on all Bush-era rates. In exchange, Democrats would get a 13-month extension of federal unemployment benefits, and tax breaks included in the Recovery Act, including the Make Work Pay and college-tuition tax credits. A few other provisions, including a New START vote and an increase in the debt ceiling, are still in the mix.

A whole lot of Democrats, as you may have noticed, are not at all pleased with the prospect of any deal that extends lower rates for the wealthy, even temporarily. Indeed, it's worth emphasizing that much of the outgoing Democratic majority may not want to pass this deal -- which would make significant Republican support a necessity.

Still, developments appear to be moving fairly quickly.

Quote:

White House officials, meanwhile, expressed hope of sealing a deal swiftly, perhaps by midweek, and clearing the Congressional calendar for a long list of other priorities that they aim to accomplish by the end of the year, including ratification of the New Start arms treaty with Russia and the repeal of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy for gay service members as part of a wider Pentagon policy bill.

By that reasoning, don't be too surprised if GOP leaders suddenly decide to drag out these talks as long as possible, causing needless delays in order to prevent progress on any other issues.

Also note the question of the duration of the temporary extension.

Quote:

Administration officials said the negotiations were focused on the question of extending the tax rates for one or two years, with a three-year extension highly unlikely, even though that time frame would probably eliminate the tax fight as an urgent issue in the 2012 elections.

Many Republicans say they want a permanent extension of the rates, or as long an extension as possible. Democrats say they would not mind the issue coming up during Mr. Obama's re-election bid, because they see it as politically helpful to them in painting Republicans as defenders of the rich.

Am I the only one who sees that as a pretty significant gamble?

—[url=mailto:sbenen@washingtonmonthly.com]Steve Benen[/url] 8:00 AM December 6, 2010

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archiv ... 026937.php



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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 5:06 am • # 2 
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The race to the bottom is really heating up.


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 5:57 am • # 3 
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i think this is the worst idea ever, if Obama is serious about fighting the deficit.


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 6:02 am • # 4 
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acdtually, a ONE year extension would be ok with me. it would be costly, but not so costly as to ruin things.


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 6:05 am • # 5 
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Are you willing to have unemployment benefits expire for millions [who did nothing to bring this on themselves] ... during the winter, Mac? ~ I'm not ~

Sooz


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 6:22 am • # 6 
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sooz08 wrote:
Are you willing to have unemployment benefits expire for millions [who did nothing to bring this on themselves] ... during the winter, Mac? ~ I'm not ~

Sooz

that is really not the question.  the question is whether REPUBLICANS are, sooz.  this constant capitulation on issues may be just ducky with you, but it absolutely is not with me.  i have had enough.


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 6:28 am • # 7 
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I've made it clear it is NOT 'just ducky' with me, Mac ~ but I don't have the same faith in Rs 'compassion or morality' that you seem to ~ I believe they would not renew/extend unemployment benefits to those who rely on them to live ~

Sooz


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 6:36 am • # 8 
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sooz08 wrote:
I've made it clear it is NOT 'just ducky' with me, Mac ~ but I don't have the same faith in Rs 'compassion or morality' that you seem to ~ I believe they would not renew/extend unemployment benefits to those who rely on them to live ~

Sooz

their compassion is not at issue.  it is whether they are willing to barter their billion dollar tax breaks for them.  they say they won't.  i bet they will.  but simply caving it without finding out is STUPID, imo.

here is what i think should be done.  i think the middle class tax breaks should be made permanent, and the richies should expire after one year.  if we could get THAT deal, i am all for it.


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 6:49 am • # 9 
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I too would prefer a one-year deal, Mac ~ in fact, I've repeatedly said I would prefer no extension at all ~ I just have a deep-rooted fear that the R senators are craven enough to say 'fuck you' and turn their backs/walk away from those in desperate need ~

Sooz



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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 7:12 am • # 10 
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sooz08 wrote:

I too would prefer a one-year deal, Mac ~ in fact, I've repeatedly said I would prefer no extension at all ~ I just have a deep-rooted fear that the R senators are craven enough to say 'fuck you' and turn their backs/walk away from those in desperate need ~

Sooz


let me ask you one more question then, before i let this rest.  how do you think that being assholes would play out for them in 2012?


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PostPosted: 12/06/10 7:28 am • # 11 
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I think they would wear the mantle of 'brave and strong and true patriots' to much of their base ~ now let me ask you a question ~ do you really think the Koch brothers or Dick Cheney or Dick Armey or Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh et al give a flying fig if some butcher or mechanic or shoe salesman or teacher or cop or fireman somewhere [or even 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or the real millions of people being affected] can't feed or provide housing for her/his family because, after being laid off or fired thru no fault of her/his own, the lifeline of unemployment benefits were consciously and intentionally not extended in favor of political gaming?

Sooz


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 7:32 am • # 12 
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sooz08 wrote:
I think they would wear the mantle of 'brave and strong and true patriots' to much of their base ~ now let me ask you a question ~ do you really think the Koch brothers or Dick Cheney or Dick Armey or Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh et al give a flying fig if some butcher or mechanic or shoe salesman or teacher or cop or fireman somewhere [or even 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or the real millions of people being affected] can't feed or provide housing for her/his family because, after being laid off or fired thru no fault of her/his own, the lifeline of unemployment benefits were consciously and intentionally not extended in favor of political gaming?

Sooz

of course not.  but since you saw fit to ask, how about this one:

are we, as liberals, EVER going to call their bluff?


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PostPosted: 12/06/10 7:36 am • # 13 
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Well, any bill that has any pork whatsoever for Repugnant distracts get rhe veto - no compromise - or Obama and the Dems nothing but chickenshits don't deserve to be elected. After all, the Repugnants got religion and foreswore pork.
Personally, I'd rather have crooks than cowards.


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 7:57 am • # 14 
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macroscopic wrote:
sooz08 wrote:
I think they would wear the mantle of 'brave and strong and true patriots' to much of their base ~ now let me ask you a question ~ do you really think the Koch brothers or Dick Cheney or Dick Armey or Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh et al give a flying fig if some butcher or mechanic or shoe salesman or teacher or cop or fireman somewhere [or even 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or the real millions of people being affected] can't feed or provide housing for her/his family because, after being laid off or fired thru no fault of her/his own, the lifeline of unemployment benefits were consciously and intentionally not extended in favor of political gaming?

Sooz

of course not.  but since you saw fit to ask, how about this one:

are we, as liberals, EVER going to call their bluff?


Point taken, Mac ~ I'm just not comfortable gambling with literally millions of lives at stake ~ I'd be willing to gamble if there was any way that Obama could legally extend the unemployment benefits independently via executive order or whatever if the Rs held true to their threat ~

Sooz


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 9:16 am • # 15 
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sooz08 wrote:
macroscopic wrote:
sooz08 wrote:
I think they would wear the mantle of 'brave and strong and true patriots' to much of their base ~ now let me ask you a question ~ do you really think the Koch brothers or Dick Cheney or Dick Armey or Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh et al give a flying fig if some butcher or mechanic or shoe salesman or teacher or cop or fireman somewhere [or even 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or the real millions of people being affected] can't feed or provide housing for her/his family because, after being laid off or fired thru no fault of her/his own, the lifeline of unemployment benefits were consciously and intentionally not extended in favor of political gaming?

Sooz

of course not.  but since you saw fit to ask, how about this one:

are we, as liberals, EVER going to call their bluff?


Point taken, Mac ~ I'm just not comfortable gambling with literally millions of lives at stake ~ I'd be willing to gamble if there was any way that Obama could legally extend the unemployment benefits independently via executive order or whatever if the Rs held true to their threat ~

Sooz

sooz- can Obama use the nuclear option to break filibuster?

i think he should do it for start, unemployment benefits, and this tax thingy then go on vacation.  Image


Last edited by macroscopic on 12/06/10 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 9:22 am • # 16 
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macroscopic wrote:
sooz08 wrote:
macroscopic wrote:
sooz08 wrote:
I think they would wear the mantle of 'brave and strong and true patriots' to much of their base ~ now let me ask you a question ~ do you really think the Koch brothers or Dick Cheney or Dick Armey or Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh et al give a flying fig if some butcher or mechanic or shoe salesman or teacher or cop or fireman somewhere [or even 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or the real millions of people being affected] can't feed or provide housing for her/his family because, after being laid off or fired thru no fault of her/his own, the lifeline of unemployment benefits were consciously and intentionally not extended in favor of political gaming?

Sooz

of course not.  but since you saw fit to ask, how about this one:

are we, as liberals, EVER going to call their bluff?


Point taken, Mac ~ I'm just not comfortable gambling with literally millions of lives at stake ~ I'd be willing to gamble if there was any way that Obama could legally extend the unemployment benefits independently via executive order or whatever if the Rs held true to their threat ~

Sooz

sooz- can Obama use the nuclear option to break filibuster?

i think he should do it for start, unemployment benefits, and this tax thingy then go on vacation.  Image

Did he buy a ranch?


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PostPosted: 12/06/10 9:23 am • # 17 
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oskar576 wrote:
macroscopic wrote:
sooz08 wrote:
macroscopic wrote:
sooz08 wrote:
I think they would wear the mantle of 'brave and strong and true patriots' to much of their base ~ now let me ask you a question ~ do you really think the Koch brothers or Dick Cheney or Dick Armey or Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh et al give a flying fig if some butcher or mechanic or shoe salesman or teacher or cop or fireman somewhere [or even 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or the real millions of people being affected] can't feed or provide housing for her/his family because, after being laid off or fired thru no fault of her/his own, the lifeline of unemployment benefits were consciously and intentionally not extended in favor of political gaming?

Sooz

of course not.  but since you saw fit to ask, how about this one:

are we, as liberals, EVER going to call their bluff?


Point taken, Mac ~ I'm just not comfortable gambling with literally millions of lives at stake ~ I'd be willing to gamble if there was any way that Obama could legally extend the unemployment benefits independently via executive order or whatever if the Rs held true to their threat ~

Sooz

sooz- can Obama use the nuclear option to break filibuster?

i think he should do it for start, unemployment benefits, and this tax thingy then go on vacation.  Image

Did he buy a ranch?

AND a hat!


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 9:34 am • # 18 
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I don't know, Mac ~ don't forget that there are 2 definitions of 'nuclear option' ~ the original came from [I think] Trent Lott when he wanted to change the Senate rules mid-term ~ the more recent definition is using reconciliation ~ technically, I think extension of unemployment benefits would qualify as a budgetary concern and could maybe be voted on using reconciliation ~ but I don't know what [beyond limiting debate to 20 hours] reconciliation does ~ I'm not sure it affects the 60 vote 'super majority' hurdle ~

Sooz


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 9:56 am • # 19 
Budget reconciliation can't be used for anything this year because the Democrats decided against passing a budget resolution, so there is nothing to reconcile.  Also, for a matter to be included in a reconciliation bill, there has to be an instruction in the passed budget resolution that specifies the subject matter of items that may be included in a budget reconciliation bill.


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PostPosted: 12/06/10 10:07 am • # 20 
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Thanks, gop ~ can you confirm that the first 'nuclear option' was proposed by Trent Lott? ~ and do you happen to remember why he [or whoever] proposed it?

Sooz


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 10:11 am • # 21 

I don't recall if it was Trent Lott or Bill Frist that floated the idea of eliminating the filibuster on judicial nominations - that was where the term came into use.  It wasn't a proposal to eliminate the filibuster in general, but rather to eliminate its use for judicial nominations.



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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 10:14 am • # 22 
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Here you go, Mac ~ we'll see how it plays out ~ Sooz

1 hour ago
Top Democrats to meet with Obama

Washington (CNN) - Two Democratic congressional aides tell CNN that top Democrats will meet with President Obama in the 3 p.m. hour when he returns from North Carolina. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Sen. Dick Durbin, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, and Rep. Steny Hoyer will meet with Obama to discuss how to move forward on tax cuts.

Pelosi and Hoyer will also join a group of House Democrats for a 2 p.m. meeting with Vice President Joe Biden. Rep. James Clyburn, Rep. Xavier Becerra, Rep. Chris Van Hollen, and Rep. John Larson are among those who will meet with Biden to discuss tax cuts, according to two Democratic congressional aides.

A Democratic congressional source tells CNN the message congressional Democrats have for Biden and Obama is, "We won't rubber stamp a deal between the White House and Mitch McConnell. ...We want to make it clear - don't take our support for granted."

By:  CNN Congressional Correspondent Brianna Keilar

http://politicalticker.bl...rats-to-meet-with-obama/


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PostPosted: 12/06/10 10:16 am • # 23 
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gopqed wrote:

I don't recall if it was Trent Lott or Bill Frist that floated the idea of eliminating the filibuster on judicial nominations - that was where the term came into use.  It wasn't a proposal to eliminate the filibuster in general, but rather to eliminate its use for judicial nominations.


Judicial nominations ~ right! ~ thanks, gop ~

Sooz
  


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 Post subject: "Tax Deal Takes Shape"
PostPosted: 12/06/10 10:30 am • # 24 
Just to make it clear to everyone, I've always thought the elimination of the filibuster is a bad idea, regardless of who proposes it.  I also don't believe Presidential nominations should be filibustered, as I believe a President should be allowed to put in place the people he wants as long as they aren't incompetent and don't have ethics problems.


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PostPosted: 12/06/10 10:44 am • # 25 
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gopqed wrote:
Just to make it clear to everyone, I've always thought the elimination of the filibuster is a bad idea, regardless of who proposes it.  I also don't believe Presidential nominations should be filibustered, as I believe a President should be allowed to put in place the people he wants as long as they aren't incompetent and don't have ethics problems.

When you get a chance, gop, please take a look at the "Merkley Points The Way On Filibuster Reform" thread ~ while I can see the value of the filibuster on some big contentious bills, it has been grossly abused for a number of years ~ do you have a problem with reforming what the filibuster has become?

Sooz


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