More up is down, hot is cold, day is night ~ Sooz

As Perry Touts His Military Service, His Voter ID Law Restricts Veterans From Voting

By Marie Diamond on Aug 17, 2011 at 1:20 pm

jeannept
 If he can't get his great ideas through why should he be reelected?  


Because the repugnants have no GREAT ideas. Anyone who can't see that republicans are pathological by this time
 probably won't ever see it until one of the stooges from the right is elected and makes us a 3rd world country.

I don't like the repubs keeping him from doing anything, so what.  I'm supposed to elect him again so we have 4 more years of him doing nothing?

No it isn't the same.  Don't dilute anything.  And I said half assed not half way.  There was agreement to some points.  Pass those, work on the others.  He set some things he said were not negotiable and then as always negotiated and caved in.   If you take the whole bill that I assume was carefully worked out and dilute one part, it changes the whole thing.  Take things that can stand alone and are agreed upon and do those.  Then take the other points and work on them.  If companies are required to provide health insurance don't exempt companies like Mcdonalds.  Exempt smaller businesses with few employees maybe but don't exempt the huge companies.  There was a lot of work left to do to come up with a good plan, to put in good legislation.  I think they should have continued working on it instead of passing the half assed one they did.
  

bunker, great ideas and words don't help anyone.  Being able to put the ideas into operation does.  He can not do that with the repubs in the way.  Why run him again then?  No, no one will change the repubs.  No one will change the dems.  However, it seems both sides need the independents.  Neither side is doing anything to get them.
  

jeannept
 Neither side is doing anything to get them.
         
You do know that the election is 14 months away don't you? Do you think Dems should kidnap independents until election day?
Independents like to pretend they don't make up their minds until the end- I don't believe that but people need to take a tranqilizer of a beta blocker
until it's time to do something. Republicans are doing exactly what they want to do-nothing- and won't change. As the election day approaches Democrats can make them
go on record voting against every suggestion for jobs and deficit reduction- other than destroying the middle class by privatizing SS, Medicare and Medicaid.I still think there's a possibility of another civil war.
Millions of out of work people will not just lay down and die as Republicans would like them to do-

Yeah, we fought against that voter id law because of that.  I would love for anyone who can send our kids into combat to have the experience of combat themselves.  Of course that would have elimiated Reagan, GW, Clinton and Obama and also PERRY.  I sure didn't respect GW's service in the military.  It isn't a requirement and shouldn't be a requirement.  I would prefer someone who can keep us out of wars and get us out of wars and work on things at home.

Perry is an asshole who supports things that sound good to rightwingers regardless of how many people get screwed by it.  He would brag about balanced budget and his rainy day fund while teachers were being fired and schools closed and many kids won't even have textbooks at the start of school.  His priorities are warped.

no, bunker, go ahead and insult us and campaign by insulting and blaming the other guy.  That sure did well in the midterms.   That sure helps those unemployed doesn't it?

jeannept
Vote for Obama because he sucks less. No. I consider voting for a person who sucks to be as much a waste as not voting.

         


That's what a bunch of Dems and independents did in 2010 and look how that worked out for us.   We have a population that was raised on fast-food and they
expect what they want when they want it- politics doesn't work that way.  Our country is a mess. When I'm sitting in traffic waiting for the light to turn green
it's always someone 3 or 4 cars back who blows their horn as soon as the light turns green. Americans of today suck IMO. They don't read- they listen to people who scream
at them- they never seem to understand what's going on in the country. Then they go to the polls and vote for fronts for millionaires and billionaires who will screw them for 4 years.
We have absolute clowns being treated as legitimate candidates- Palin, Bachmann, Santorum, Cain, Perry. We have Fox news that has been proven to be one sided liars- still claiming to be fair and balanced-as long as they exist with their current ratings our country is screwed by it's own dumb citizens. That's all I have to say about that.

jeannept

Some think that's better than nothing. Some of us think that it would be better to do it right even if it means piece by piece.



There have been efforts for over 60 years to get health care for all- this is far from that but it's the closest anyone has been able to get and it was done with total opposition
from repugnants- The goal was Medicare for all and the best Dems could get was a bill that leaves cheating, lying "health" insurance companies still in the mix. They need to be kicked to the curb.
No profit in medical care is the only way to get health care for all- At least 37 other countries have plans that cover their citizens- are we so stupid or are righties so greedy we can't get that done?
WE don't need sticky fingered companies between patients and medical providers.

Yes, bunker, and you're not gonna change the people who vote for someone for stupid reasons or blindly.  Obama has not done a good job in my opinion.  He has shown he can not get past what the repubs do.  He has not even stood by his principles.  I can not vote for that.  Many people will not vote for that.  They also can't vote for the repubs.  I will also ask again.  Obama was elected.  So have people trned dumb since then or were they dumb then?  

We need universal health care.  The health care bill, imo, is half assed and I and others believe we should not have accepted half assed.  

So... quit your bitching and vote republican. See how much gets done then.

If you listen to the right wing radio propagandists, they are saying that Obama is an incrementalist, working his evil will, one unconstitutional, communistic act at a time, piling up small successes that will eventually equal his mkain goal, the downfall of America.

sooz, we disagree on caving in.  The dems are bragging about a half assed health bill.  Are they really going to worry about refining it any time soon?  Or are they going to be saying hey we got something passed which no one else was able to do?  If I do a half assed job on something, I don't brag about it even if it was more than anyone else did.  I'm glad his changing from his stated beliefs is ok with you.  It isn't with me because now I don't know where he stands or what he believes.  I can't trust him not to "compromise" just to get something the dems can brag about whether it's worthy of that or not.  There is buyer's remorse against Obama, too.  I just heard on ABC news that only about 28% of the people approve of the way he has handled the economy.  People are upset with both parties and the President.  Why do you think they will turn around and vote for dems?  The dems had trouble even when they had the majority.  Yes, you say well they didn't have the super majority.  Do you honestly think they will get one now?  If not, then it's the same old shit for 4 more years.  You and I may differ on a big point here.  I believe in compromise, too, however there are certain things that should not be compromised on.  Generally, when Obama has said this part is not negotiable, I have agreed with him.  But that was a lie, because he then turns around and caves in.  I would respect him if he had not caved in even if he lost.  I can not respect him as is.

  

That's so true, grampa.  I heard a couple of them today saying just that.
  

Sid, is this meant to be a joke?

  

Ah, the new talking point.
Gotta respect how well the wankers are organized to get their sicko message out, though.

The old cliche is that "politics is the art of compromise".  It's a cliche because it is true. You can rail at Obama because he compromised, but if you do you are railing at the principle of representative government.  He could have given the repubs and southern dems the finger and insisted on Canadian-style national health care (my choice).  What would we have now? NOT national health care, NOT the Affordable Care Act...in other words, NOTHING...nothing but a failed attempt that would being fading into memory like "HilaryCare" from the early days of the Clinton Admin.

And speaking of that, how do you think HilaryCare II would have fared, had she won the nomination and election? It would never have have made it out of committee for a vote, Leno and Letterman would have gotten laughs out of it for a week or so, because it was already a national joke.  Undeservedly so, but still. Unlike HilaryCare, the Affordable Health Care Act has set a good and important precedent.

I have to say, I do respect Obama for honoring the bedrock principle of compromise in American government.  And yes, compromise is a principle! There is no single American public.  There are multiple American publics whose interests are at odds with each other most of the time. They all get to vote for reps to advance those conflicting interests. Politics should be about compromise between these factions so as to advance what few interests they have in common. One of which is the need for a rational system for delivering decent health care to everyone, so that nobody is so poor that they must just die.

So, why say something is non negotable then?  Why come on strong knowing you are going to give in?  He has to compromise.  So why pretend he will stand strong on something when he won't?  I thought generally it was the Pres working with his party's representatives and senators to decide the compromises.  He hasn't always done that.  As long as he doesn't mean what he says about things, because they are all disposable in compromises, why should I trust anything he says?

Ask John Boehner and Mitch McConnel and all the Tea Party goofs who voted at last to raise the debt ceiling when they swore they wouldn't. At the beginning of negotiation, almost everything is non-negotiable.  I was hugely pissed off when I lost tens of thousands when the credit downgrade was announced, because a bunch of gradeschool dropout asshats in the tea party demonstrated the folly of non-negotiability. I would be on your side against Obama today, had he done the same and cost me a hundred thousand or more and totally blown up the credit market again, which is what would have happened. Would you think better of him in the middle of a depression because he was a by-god non-negotiating absolutist?

I don't want to ask the repubs, grampa.  Yeah the repubs are terrible.  So you think the dems will get a super majority?  If not we will have 4 more years of the same shit.

I would think better of him if he wouldn't make strong statements he knows he can't live up to.  I would think more of him if he had some principles which were non negotiable.  I have not said he needs to be a non-negotiating absolutist.  I'd be satisfied if he just wasn't a liar.  And, knowing that the repubs are so horrible doesn't make me respect Obama.  I disrespect him because of his actions.

The repubs will continue to do what they do because they know Obama will not just compromise, but will cave in.  

You know, I'm remembering all through that debate that he was out there urging compromise, saying there had to be a way to reach an agreement.
I mistyped on an earlier post when I said "politics is the art of compromise". The actual cliche is "Politics is the art of the possible".  That is what was going on during the debt ceiling debate.You seem to be requiring Obama to enter a negotiation declaring his lowest price and sticking to it. I've been in business deals where a changing reality required my previously non-negotiable position to become negotiable.

And I don't understand how recognizing a political reality, as Obama did, translates in your mind to lack of principle. There is a difference between stubbornness and principle, and the highest principle he had to have at the time, as CEO of the United States, was to prevent a global financial calamity.  I feel like writing him a thank you note right now.

By the way, it's a pleasure arguing with you.

No

Your arguments don't make any sense. From what I can tell, you're blaming Obama for not being able to get things done when the blame really rests with the republicans who have been decidedly obstinate in preventing him from getting anything done. You're blaming the victim so... vote for the perpetrators.

I guess you could make a case that a better alternative would be a democratic candidate whom the right wing ideologues did not hate so much as they hate Obama. Or someone whose aspirations for accomplishment were more modest, so he or she would not be seen as settling for less than the goal when their weak tea proposals were accepted by the opposition without challenge.  That seems a lot like surrender of principle on our part, though, doesn't it?