Ha, Sid.  I am saying he can't get anything done.  Dems are saying that.  He is saying that.  Yes, it's because of the repubs.  Maybe there is someone who could do a better job of getting things done despite the repubs.  I am saying since he can't get anything done, why should I vote for him?  Why wouldn't I like a better choice?  Someone who has a chance?

Obama is a victim?  How sad is that.  Not sure I want a Pres who's a victim for another 4 years.  He's a politician, just like the repubs and he has been unable to get past them.

BTW, Sid, I am trying to point out what a lot of independents and others are thinking.  I don't consider that bitching.  I am having good discussions with several people whose opinions I respect.  The fact is though, even if it was bitching, I have that right.  You have the right to not read my posts.   You have the right to post what you did.  I just hope you don't blame me for this one though like you did other problems we've had.  I didn't attack you. 

I guess you could make a case that a better alternative would be a democratic candidate whom the right wing ideologues did not hate so much as they hate Obama.

Chaos.. that's my point. It doesn't matter who the Dems put out there, they'd still be viciously attacked simply because they're Dems. I don't see anyone in the republican ranks (and few among the Democrats) who come even close to exhibiting the intelligence and level-headed approach that Obama demonstrates daily. That's not to say he always gets it right, but he's a damn sight better than most. Democrats would be foolish to dump him in a misguided effort to put someone else before the republican firing squad.

Grampa, I have always loved discussions with you, too.

What I would like to see is ok, everything is on the table.  Or see, taxes have to be part of the solution, it has it be balanced, that is non negotiable.  Or we can not just take away from the services to people in need, that is non negotiable.  Or, this has to be done now because I will not accept it being carried on, because we can not tolerate a partial agreement and carry on this same argument for months and months.  He made statements like those.  Then he caved in.  The rich aren't touched.  The subsidies aren't touched.  The elderly are touched.  Excuse me, I don't find that acceptable.  Do we want to make a bet on whether or not the Bush tax cuts are extended again?  Aren't there some things that are just too important to compromise on?  Aren't there some core principles he should stick by, regardless?  Should the elderly vote for him, the unemployed?  Or do they think neither side is helping them.  He's going to bring up some bills, he has great ideas, he'll give a speech next week.  He will then compromise and what he says in his speech simply won't happen.  Yeah that will show again that the repubs are bad.  Some here seem to think that will win votes for the dems.  I say it will lose votes for both sides.  

  

He made statements like those.  Then he caved in.

Chaos, I was talkng about during the negotiations.  I do know he doesn't vote on the bills.  sheesh

I think you are looking at a still frame and thinking it's the whole movie. All of those things are arguments in progress. In the meantime, we have not precipitated a global depression.

amen.  terrific post, grampy.

Krugman was right.  from their perspective, anyone who is not a Republican is not a legitimate leader.

in fact, this recession is arguably less severe than the one under Reagan.  i say arguably because i don't think it is.  but in terms of the peak of unemployment, it is.

Well I can certainly understand why people stand by their candidate so strongly.  I have done the same since LBJ.  I think I turned off to the dems when Bush was annointed by the Supreme Court and the dems let him get away with so much, sometimes with a weak fight and sometimes with no fight at all.  I was excited by Hillary and appalled by the way she was treated by the other dem candidates and their supporters.  Anyway, I didn't think Obama would be a good President and imo he hasn't been.  Yes, there are reasons he hasn't been able to do many of the things he wanted to do.  The problem is, I don't think that will change, I don't think the dems will get a super majority.  So, things will be the same, and I don't see how the millions in deep trouble will survive 4 more years.  It would be the same if one of these repubs was elected.  At least I hope the dems would fight and not let them run free like they did with Bush.  A lot of people are turned off, rightfully so.  They see the same for 4 more years regardless of who is elected.  The not voting for Pres does make a statement.  It doesn't mean they (we) don't care.  It means both sides are unacceptable.  Yes, the repubs are doing their crap.  The dems are spending their time griping about it.  Neither of those things help the people who have been unemployed for so long who are trying so hard just to survive.  There has to be something more, some hope.  Some people may turn to someone like Perry in desperation for change.  Personally, I don't want just any change, I want change for the better and none of the repubs are that.  But, neither is Obama, imo.  There's plenty of time so maybe something will change.  I won't hold my breath.

All Obama has to do is start pushing back - hard.
Then watch his numbers.

jeanne- i have been posting on another board with a lot of conservatives.  they won't vote for Romney.  i doubt they will vote for Perry, either.  in other words, despite how bad things have gotten, i don't think there is quite the will to change right now that there was in 2008 or 2010.

of course, 15 months is a long time.  a lot could change, and probably will.

oskar, what do you mean by pushing back.  Some think he is doing that by blaming the repubs for everything more.  Is that what you mean?

the repubs are enjoying playing with Obama.  They want to keep the dems from doing what they want more than they want to do anything themselves.

Blame game isn't working for those with half a brain or more. The rest do as they're told.

Now, if the GOP continues as they have been since Obama was elected and Obama reacts the same as he has in the past, he's toast.

Time to get out the veto pen and use it.
Time to get the Presidential Order pad and use it.
He has nothing to lose and could get s few things done before getting tossed out though I'm not so convinced he would be if he grew a pair.

Look at what a couple of socks and a flight suit did for Bush. [img]/domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif[/img]

  

Ha.  Thanks, oskar.  We seem to be in agreement about that.

Well, he hasn't anything to lose and the first time he vetoes or issues a PO, watch the Tea Baggers howl. They'll get very little support, not even from the few sane Repubs left.

  

that is a really good observation, jeanne.  you must ruminate on this stuff.

Yeah, if I remember right Obama said he would veto any bill (during the debt ceiling debate) that was not complete and would mean months more of this bs debate.  He then supported a bill that was incomplete and means months more of ths bs debate.  Talk is not strength when it is not meant.  It is just words.  He hs talked strong many times.  That isn't worth shit.  It doesn't help anyone.  Maybe it helps the repubs because Obama looks weak when he says those things and then caves in.

I agree it's disgraceful about the repubs.  I don't see that it will change.  I think the Congress will stay basically the same.  So, same bs by the repubs and same bs from the Pres.

The impeachment thing is just too ridiculous to even waste time on.

actually, jeanne- not to split hairs here- but the bill he signed is not complete, YET. it is still possible that the deficit commission will authorize some revenue increases.

jeannept
Obama was elected. So have people trned dumb since then or were they dumb then?         



We have always had dumb people in America- I'm grouping dumb and racist together so more people are now dumb than before Nov. 2008.  I don't know how old anybody on this board is

but I have been voting since Kennedy and I have  never seen more un-american behavior in my lifetime than the Republicans have shown in the last 33 months- although the early 60's comes close..  Even with all the damage to this country that dumbya did, he wanted to have a dictatorship - guess he felt he was held back from totally ruining us- so I can imagine President Obama is stressed and disappointed more now than at any point in his life. I don't have a number for these people but a large number of people never expected Obama to win and since he has their racism has come flooding out - I don't expect them to ever accept him or to ever stop wishing him dead so his lack of success has probably prevented the next Civil War- or at least delayed it. 

"a large number of people never expected Obama to win and since he has their racism has come flooding out..."

OH! Don't say that - unless you want to be accused of being a racist like I was.