Listen. I've had this discussion with a bunch of different people over the years. There are positions on guns that I respect. When someone like monster or norsewulf  or mpicky says to me that they want a gun to protect their family, they've had the training, they know how to handle a gun respectfully and knowledgably and safely, I believe them. I'm not a gun fan, but I don't feel less safe because norsewulf keeps a handgun in a locked box in a closet.

But there's a difference between understanding why a few intelligent responsible adults feel safer carrying a gun after they've made the effort to get the knowledge and the training, and believing that public gun ownership by joe q public makes any sense as a policy. There are far to many guns out there in the hands of far too many people who do more harm with them than good. The gun industry has created the need for fearful responsible people to carry guns to protect themselves, by putting so many guns out there in the first place. It's way too easy to get a gun in the U.S. The bad guys have them--and not just the bad guys. The punks. The kid gangs. The run of the mill losers that wish their penis was bigger and plan to prove it to everyone by knocking off a convenience store or going postal on the popular kids at school. Did they get them legally? Probably not. They stole them. They bought them through mail order and lied to get them. They found them under dad's bed in a shoebox beside his porn. Whatever. THEY FOUND THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE.

All you American freedom lovers? Here's a news flash. The NRA is not your friend. They don't care about your freedoms. The NRA exists only for the same reason the tobacco lobbyists exist. To protect the interests of a multi-billion dollar industry from government interference and anything that remotely resembles common sense. Take a good look at who contributes to the NRA if you don't believe me. Just like anything else in corporate america today, if you want to find the truth, follow the money. The story is all there in dollars and cents.

And the American government has given up it's soverenty in this issue. they've as much as said it--we can't control the guns. There are millions of guns out there, there are rediculous numbers of guns being produced every day, and we can't do a damn thing about it. So joe average family guy? You're right. Go get yourself a gun. There is no law and order in this country any more. There is no social contract, there is no "us" that comes together and decides what kind of community we want to have and puts trust in that collective. There's only you and the other guy, only chaos. So go get yourself a gun and make your own laws, protect your own family, in the wilderness that is left when society finally collapses for good.

That's what a public policy of individual gun ownership says to me. We've given up, and desending into lawlessness is inevitable. Protect yourself if you can.

(previously posted at CE2)         

All gun owners don't subscribe to the NRA. I agree with you on that and with all the rest. I do think gun laws should be stricter, I do think it should be harder to get guns. I think that training should be required to own one. But the fact of the matter is, ALL of that gets thrown on the responsible gun owners door as well. Like we are at fault and like we had something to do with it. And, it doesn't stop the BS that those of us, who spend HOURS a month and hundreds of dollars to stay trained with our firearms, have to listen to.

From my standpoint, every responsible gun owner I know is concerned with IRresponsible ones, and actually DO something about it. But, what is the average responsible gun owner supposed to do? And, yes, I appreciate that you make a distinction. But JW didn't, Oskar sure doesn't. That is okay, I have relatively thick skin, but I am going to point it out when I see it.

YES.  In fact, I think gun laws bring up some interesting points about what Americans as a society fear and don't fear.  Americans, as a people, don't fear lethal weapons nearly as much as they should.  You're not afraid of guns, nuclear weapons, torture....but you're afraid of black people, gays, sex, non christians, scientists....but you're not afraid of global warming, guns, and totalitarian government?  Really?  You guys are prepared to fight for your right to carry guns, but not fight for your right to not be tortured, searched, held without bail or charges, racially profiled, learn about evolution in school, or have access to birth control?  REALLY?

You know, if you extrapolate on current social trends in the U.S., it is conceivable that someday soon it will be easier for a hormone charged 16 year old to get a gun than a condom or an abortion.  What does that SAY about american values in general?

Oskar sure doesn't

Only in your mind.

I feel like you are doing a lot of generalizing. Most Americans I know are the exact opposite of what you just described. I guess I don't know where the conversation should continue considering your low opinion of Americans.

Also, I went to CE2 and read the thread there. I will say that I don't appreciate being unknowing coaxed into talking about a friend of mine that is no longer here. I didn't realize when the avatar was brought up that it was talking about a specific poster, monster. I think that was done in bad form.

Oh, you made some really personal and crappy comments towards me regarding my carrying of a gun.

So post them.
I don't remember any.

For me, that is one of the biggest insults.

Ok, maybe i didn't phrase it clearly, but I wasn't commenting on what every american believes.  I was commenting on what MAKES IT INTO PUBLIC DISCUSSION.  Americans fight tooth and nail to protect their gun rights, and they use freedom of the individual and rights of the individual to defend that.  But where are those same individualists when George Bush passes laws making illegal search and seizure and arrest legal?  Based on the public EFFORT that goes into both discussions, it's not that hard to extrapolate that American people care more about gun rights than their right to a fair trial.  Whoever it is that you know and talk to every day--they aren't making the news.  The gun nuts ARE.

Of course there are rational intelligent thinking people in the united states.  But they dont control the public discussion right now.  AND THEY NEED TO.  Creationism vs Evolution in schools--do you realize that's not even a debate in any other industrialized country?  How the hell did that even make it into any conversation had by ANYONE in power?

I'm sick to death of the American institutions downloading civic and community responsibilities onto individuals and calling it freedom.  Freedom to what?  let your kid die of type two diabetes because you couldn't afford health care?  Shoot your neighbour because the corporations that manufacture guns felt the need to arm anyone that could spell their name?  feed yourself on dust because donald trump didn't want to pay taxes on his 45th yaht?  freedom to have your kids taught that the earth is flat and the devil created darwin?

Collective society creates governmennt.  Government is US. or it should be.  It's purpose is to combine effort for the best of all, not to put a crimp in your dance.  I think the next freedom north americans should fight for is freedom from stupidity.

Link please?
Context matters.

  

Mpicky, no matter how hard you seem to be trying, this discussion is not about attacking americans, or you personally.  It's not even about attacking responsible gun owners, though i think the question still needs to be asked--why does anyone need to be a responsible gun owner?  And why would anyone post about how much they spend to continue to be a responsible trained gun owner when they've previously posted that they can't afford health care for themselves or their kids?

Ok, you're a responsible gun owner.  you're trained, you own a gun, you spend large amounts of money to continue to be trained and to store and care for your gun safely.

Why?  Why do you need that gun?  Why is it a priority over other things that you need?  Why should your need for that gun be SO important that it ends up trumping the public's need to control gun manufacture and distribution so that there are less guns out there in general to be lost,, stolen, misused or used violently?

What exactly IS responsible gun use?  (And i mean USE. not practice or sport.  USE.)

https://voicesorchoices.yu...nother-Wanker-With-A-Gun

I stated several times that I found it highly offensive to call my judgement into question like that.