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PostPosted: 01/22/12 4:36 am • # 1 
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No story yet ~ just the "breaking news" banner on MSN ~ there was a report yesterday that he was in "serious condition" ~ I still feel sad that his storied career ended as it did ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 4:59 am • # 2 

Stay away from tobacco.



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PostPosted: 01/22/12 5:54 am • # 3 
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he was 85, GOP. what is life expectancy for US males?


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 5:58 am • # 4 
It depends on what age you measure it from.

For an 85-year old man I would expect it's north of 90.

And regardless, his age doesn't mean tobacco is any less harmful.


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 7:04 am • # 5 
RIP Joe...


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 7:17 am • # 6 

Yep, tobacco sure did a lot of harm.  Funny in a way though.  There he was ready to finish his year and fight this thing or give up.  All of a sudden he went down hill fast.  It happens.  Stress has a lot to do with it.  Wonder what did the most to cause the death right now, tobacco?, or the guilt from having not followed through and thus allowing more boys to be brutalized by his buddy, you know mr. charity.

Sorry, I just can't have peace to you feelings for child rape enablers.



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PostPosted: 01/22/12 11:27 am • # 7 
Well I've said it before but it bears repeating:  he did what was his duty to do; he reported the hearsay to the powers that were supposed to be told.  By the opinion of many, I guess if the Prosecutor had decided not to prosecute, Paterno should have instituted prosecution by himself of his buddy.  Remember, he did not witness the abuse and he was not in an investigative position:  he reported it to those whose duty it was to investigate and report to law enforcement....it was not his place to question his superiors, especially since he himself had not witnessed the abuse.  I do not think he is guilty of enabling any wrongdoing...


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 12:39 pm • # 8 

I don't judge a man to be good because he always did what was legal.  Sometimes the most moral thing to do is also illegal. A child was raped.  A person reported to him a child was at the very least molested.  He did what he was legally obligated to do.  The man who alledgedly did it still worked for him and still was alone with little boys.  No problem with that?  Not his place to question his superiors?  When a little boy was reportedly raped and more were possibly vulnerable to the same man?  There was no reason for a person to want to make sure it was reported to the police and investigated?  Even Paterno says he should have.  Some people think kids are important enough to make them question their superiors just to make sure the kids were indeed protected.  By everyone just doing the legal thing, the rapist was enabled.  No one cared about the kids, hey "I did what I was legally oligated to do".  Paterno is not much better than the guy who saw a child being raped and did nothing to help the kid.  As I said, I can have no peace to you feelings for a child rape enabler.  I tell you what, I wish as much peace to him as those boys had when they were being raped by his buddy. 

If you know there's a possibility that children are being hurt by someone or something, in my opinion, it is your obligation to do everything in your power to make sure it stops or is not a danger.  I don't give a damn what you are legally obligated to do.



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PostPosted: 01/22/12 12:40 pm • # 9 
I feel sad that he died.  I think I said before that my father, who is a Penn State grad, loved him.

I have been divided on the demonization of Joe.  It comes in part from elevating his status too high. I don't like the idolization of anyone.   The culture is almost cult-like and then people become idols  more than people. 

Joe should have done more, but he did what he was required to do.   I can't hate him.


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 12:46 pm • # 10 
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I don't think he was sufficiently outraged about the molestation. I think that in the culture of athletics, like in the culture of the priesthood, there is a degree of tolerance of it.  I suspect Joe was relieved that, after he had kicked it upstairs, nothing came of it to disrupt the program.


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 12:50 pm • # 11 

I don't think he was outraged at all and that was the problem.  He reported it and didn't want to be bothered with it.

Lots of men (especially men of his era) seem to be very uncomfortable with the very concept of sexual abuse.   Especially with little boys.  I don't understand it, but it is.  



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PostPosted: 01/22/12 1:14 pm • # 12 
kathyk1024 wrote:

I don't think he was outraged at all and that was the problem.  He reported it and didn't want to be bothered with it.

Lots of men (especially men of his era) seem to be very uncomfortable with the very concept of sexual abuse.   Especially with little boys.  I don't understand it, but it is.  

I don't think men of that era were "uncomfortable" with the concept. they were more contemptuous of it, as in a "don't be such a sissy" kind of way that further victimizes the victim.


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 1:28 pm • # 13 
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No sympathy from me.
Methinks he thought that saving reputations and the "good name" of Penn State was more important than the victims.
A candidate for the Hall of Shame, IMO.


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 1:49 pm • # 14 
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Technically, Joe Paterno did what he was required to do, both legally and per the Penn State hierarchy chain of command ~ but personally, I believe the Penn State hierarchy and Paterno ignored their moral and ethical obligations ~ at a bare minimum, there should have been a full-scale internal investigation as soon as there was any suspicion or report ~ instead of protecting vulnerable children, they chose to protect their cash-cow football program ~ to me, that is despicable in the extreme and unforgivable ~ for me, Joe Paterno took a big fall, at least some of which was because of others' moral and ethical failings ~ but his storied legend cratered because of his own moral and ethical failings ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 2:01 pm • # 15 
I am going to defend the indefensible here, but I don't think Joe thought this was HIS responsibility. I think he passed it on to whoever's responsibility he thought it was and was done with the issue.

His was the business of running the football program and not the business of protecting little boys in a program outside of the school. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but I actually can understand that mindset.

I also think the scandal more than the lung cancer killed him. And yea, I agree with gopqed on this one thing; maybe a first. DON'T SMOKE!!!!


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 2:08 pm • # 16 
kathyk1024 wrote:
I am going to defend the indefensible here, but I don't think Joe thought this was HIS responsibility. I think he passed it on to whoever's responsibility he thought it was and was done with the issue.

His was the business of running the football program and not the business of protecting little boys in a program outside of the school. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but I actually can understand that mindset.

I also think the scandal more than the lung cancer killed him. And yea, I agree with gopqed on this one thing; maybe a first. DON'T SMOKE!!!!
If his thoughts were as you express then he was even worse than I believed.  To think the welfare of a child is not your business is low and not even human in my view.  We are all responsible for the safety and welfare of children.  Damn, what a horrible thought.  

  


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 2:19 pm • # 17 

I have a patient in the hospital who is very mentally ill, and his wife has a restraining order against him.   He stated that if he gets released from the hospital to a motel he is going to her house and go to jail and that will be that.

Tarasoff versus the regents of California mandate that I must report that.  Harm to self or others.  He also didn't overtly say he'd hurt her, just that he'd go to her house.  I reported it through my assigned channels at the hospital.    I am not going to his wife's house and stand guard.   I want her to be safe, but I do not feel it's my personal responsibility to do anything beyond reporting through channels. 

I don't feel morally or ethically failed. 



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PostPosted: 01/22/12 2:34 pm • # 18 
This is a tough one for me to comment on for so many reasons. First off - not being a football fan and even less so - American football - I didn't know who Joe Paterno was until I heard this story. Secondly - I have personally witnessed both sides of this issue in my life, as in: having been abused (and witnessed abuse) within the family - and - the effects of official intervention. It's a double-edged sword.


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 2:35 pm • # 19 
Is his wife an innocent vulnerable little child who is possibly being raped by him? 

Kathy, do you really think the two situations are the same or even comparable?


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 2:39 pm • # 20 
To me his having anything to do with football means nothing.  I would feel the same about anyone in the same circumstances.  I don't think his being so famous should make him any more responsible and it sure as hell shouldn't make him any less responsible.


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 3:00 pm • # 21 
jeannept wrote:
Is his wife an innocent vulnerable little child who is possibly being raped by him? 

Kathy, do you really think the two situations are the same or even comparable?
Certainly I see the comparison or I wouldn't have told the story for people to take potshots at.  It is harm to self or others on your watch.    There was an allegation that Sanduski was abusing a child in the Penn State shower.  Joe did not see it, but he reported it up the chain of command.  Joe isn't involved in the Second Mile organization. He is not Penn State Administration.  Joe was NOT personally going to do the investigation or get personally involved into Second Mile business.     

Having to do with football is what made this story VIRAL!!!!! 


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 3:22 pm • # 22 
Good point Kath.

Again... it's a double-edged sword.


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PostPosted: 01/22/12 3:29 pm • # 23 

Kathy, I didn't realize we were so far apart on moral issues.  Or perhaps you don't see it as a moral issue.  I do, so that could be the biggest difference.

So, the University says things have to be reported based on harm to oneself or another?  I'd have to check into that.  I think that's a social services thing and is not the basis used at Universities.  I could be wrong but then I am not really concerned with the legalities.  I consider children to be the responsibilty of all of us.  I think we have a huge moral responsibility to protect them.  The wife in your story has a restraining order.  She is more able to take care of herself.  The authorities know about the guy and can watch him.

Sanduski worked with Paterno.  The people around Sanduski knew that this guy has the "charity" which makes young boys easily available to him.  They knew he took these boys to different states etc for games, rooms shared, showers shared.  They knew he showered with the kids at the university.  A guy who also works with Paterno tells Paterno he saw Sanduski raping a boy in the shower.  The details vary but, Sanduski was behind and the kid's face was smashed up against the shower wall to stifle his screams, etc.  Now, of course a thought should go to it may not be true.  However, the what if it is true is way too great to not act and act quickly.  It's not just what Sanduski may have done to this boy but the fact that there are all these other little boys that are available to him and vulberable to him.  Shouldn't a red flag pop up in your mind if you hear of this possibility?  Wouldn't a a caring human want to make sure Sanduski couldn't hurt another kid while it's being investigated.  Wouldn't you want to make sure it is being investigated?  The charge is horrible so wouldn't you want the one who told you fired if it turned out he lied?  None of this happened, Sanduski still there, still with the kids, the guy who told still there.  Wouldn't you want to know, so, are the little kids safe or not? 

Second Mile "business"?  Raping little boys is business?  What about Pen State "business"?  The rape was there.  I am really having trouble believing that the rape of a child means so little, is of so little importance that it can just be tossed away as "business".  Didn't Sanduski work for Paterno?  So, him having an assistant who rapes little boys is fine with Paterno because it's not the football "business"?  Paterno didn't care about the little boy?  That's what you're saying?  Because it wasn't about football "business"?  And that's ok?  He did the telling now it's done?  Who cares what happens to the boy? 



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PostPosted: 01/22/12 3:47 pm • # 24 

I am not discussing this issue with you.  I found your opening statement insulting and I do not want to go down that road.  Child abuse is wrong.  So is old lady domestic battery. 

I deal daily with victims of child sexual abuse and truthfully in many cases the results are very ugly. 



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PostPosted: 01/22/12 4:13 pm • # 25 
There are plenty of people who see only the legal aspect of things.  That isn't an insult, it's a fact.  From what you said in your story and about Paterno, it appears you are one of those because all that mattered to you was that the legal requirement was covered.  That is not an insult.  That is what I saw.  Since the most important thing to me is the moral aspects we differ in views.  That's not an insult.

Kathy, you and I have had discussions.  You know the kind of people I have worked with like Katy and Sammy and the others.  You know some of what we have seen and some of what we have done for children, including going to jail ourselves to protect them, so you have seen nothing we haven't.  The difference there is we can't handle the limitations of the social services.  Sign here, stamp this paper and tadaa.  These people did and do follow and protect and don't just report and hope for the best.  We're different kinds of people, Kathy.  That is no insult to you and no great praise for me or the others.  That's just the way it is.  We have different ways of handling problems, but we already knew that didn't we?

Anyway, my point of view in this thread is children are so important, and so many were vulnerable, that Paterno failed his moral obligations to do whatever he could to protect them.


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