"sid, I know you are not saying males are raped as frequently as females are raped?"

I really don't know what the statistics are but regardless: my point is that rape isn't necessarily about sex (or gender) - it's about power and control. I also don't think it's productive to isolate the gender of the perpetrators as being solely male because it runs the risk of diminishing the perception of the crime's severity if the perpetrator in a given rape happened to be female or the victim happened to be male. Rape is rape regardless of the genders of the offender or the victim and it is an act of violence no less or more so than stabbing or shooting the victim.

Google "bernardo homolka case". I keep thinking about this case anytime a discussion about rape comes up.

sid, we have all (except Jim) been saying most rapes are done by men, not all rapes. Most of the victims of rape are women, not all victims. We have also said that rape is a power /control thing, not a sexual thing.
Rapists are cowards and they tend to target people they think can not defend themselves. Since most women are physically weaker than most men, women are more often the target. Women have been discussed because the op was Hannity saying women need to arm themselves to prevent rape. As I said, including clarification in sex ed would go to both genders and would help both genders. Sid, do you not agree that men are more apt to misunderstand and think they have a right, than women?

"Sid, do you not agree that men are more apt to misunderstand and think they have a right, than women?"

I think men may be more apt to act out on their misunderstanding, but I don't think "misunderstanding" between the genders is purely a male phenomenon.

sid, did I say it was? I was talking specifically about rape, especially acquaintance rape. I have not said anything is purely a male phenomenon. I think we do disagree on the number of female victims vs male victims. I also think we disagree on whether the males are more prone to think they have the right for some warped reasoning which I called misunderstanding just to be nice. Men have had the power. Men have heard that the woman is to "serve them" from the Bible etc. Some think that is true and that they have a right to force it. Women have not been taught that they have those same rights. In fact, a lot of women think the men DO have that right or that there is nothing they can do about it. Historically, the justice system has made the victim a "slut" and excused the behavior of the man. There is a difference in the number of men vs the number of women raped. The control/power thing, although not purely male, is primarily a male phenomenon.

"sid, did I say it was?"

No... but any discussion about rape these days seem to imply that it is purely a male phenomenon. Even the original question does so. Mention the word rape and it's ingrained in peoples' minds "male perpetrator female victim" - even males - me included. That's ingrained. I'm saying that if we (meaning the broader society) can get past that meme, we may be able to understand the problem of rape more thoroughly and perhaps map out a path forward. I'm not attacking anyone's position on the subject - I'm only offering a possible perspective about it that isn't being considered in the broader public discussion.

"I think we do disagree on the number of female victims vs male victims." We probably do but I don't think that matters. Without diminishing the severity of the crimes being committed against women, I'm only pointing out that there are probably more male victims of rape and more female perpetrators of rape than people seem willing to acknowledge.

"I also think we disagree on whether the males are more prone to think they have the right for some warped reasoning which I called misunderstanding just to be nice."

I'm not one of those kinds of men so I really don't know. What I do know is that I have encountered many men like that and never felt any kind of kinship with them. Nowadays, I don't have to be too close to them to spot them and veer off, if you know what I'm saying...

"Men have had the power. Men have heard that the woman is to "serve them" from the Bible etc. Some think that is true and that they have a right to force it."

I guess I'm not a man because I deliberately have no power - I threw out my Bible when I was 12 and I don't hang out with guys like that. That was sarcasm - sorry... it's not meant to be acerbic. You see the meme taking shape here? It could be argued that women are gaining power. The bible isn't as pervasive in our society as it once was and guys like that are seen as assholes even by other guys. The dynamics are changing as the ability to exchange information grows so the discussion needs to grow and change as well.

Rape Is Not Inevitable: On Zerlina Maxwell, Men and Hope

Jessica Valenti on March 12, 2013 - 11:55 AM ET


Of all the feminist ideas that draw ire, one would think that “don’t rape” is a fairly noncontroversial statement. It seems not.

Last week, Zerlina Maxwell, political commentator and writer, went on Fox News’ Hannity to talk about the myth that gun ownership can prevent rape. Maxwell made the apt point that the onus should not be on women to have to arm themselves but on men not to rape them:

I don’t think that we should be telling women anything. I think we should be telling men not to rape women and start the conversation there…You’re talking about this as if it’s some faceless, nameless criminal, when a lot of times it’s someone you know and trust…If you train men not to grow up to become rapists, you prevent rape.

And with that, the floodgates of misogyny opened. Right-wing media outlets like TheBlaze oversimplified Maxwell’s comments, writing that her call to teach men not to rape was “bizarre.” Online, Maxwell started receiving racist and misogynist threats—including, ironically enough, threats of rape.

The reaction to Maxwell’s comments, while horrific, are not entirely surprising. Women who speak their mind—especially women of color—are often targets of harassment and threats. But what I find most telling is the incredulousness people are expressing over the notion that we teach men not to rape. Crazy talk!

Here’s the thing—when you argue that it’s impossible to teach men not to rape, you are saying that rape is natural for men. That this is just something men do. Well I’m sorry, but I think more highly of men than that. (And if you are a man who is making this argument, you’ll forgive me if I don’t ever want to be in a room alone with you.)

And when you insist that the only way to prevent rape is for women to change their behavior—whether it’s recommending that they carry a weapon or not wear certain kinds of clothing—you are not only giving out false information, you are arguing that misogyny is a given. That the world will continue to be a dangerous and unfair place for women and we should just get used to the fact. It’s a pessimistic and, frankly, lazy view on life. Because when you argue that this is “just the way things are,” what you are really saying is, I don’t care enough to do anything about it.

Do people making this argument really want to live in a world where we just shrug our shoulders at epidemic-levels of sexual violence and expect every woman to be armed? (And little girls, do we give them guns too?)

The truth is that focusing on ways women can prevent rape will always backfire. Not only because it’s ineffective—what a woman wears or what she drinks has nothing to do with whether or not she’ll be attacked—but because it creates a culture in which women are responsible for men’s actions. Because when you say there are things women can do to prevent someone from raping them—owning a gun, not walking in a certain neighborhood—you are ensuring that rape victims who don’t take these steps will be blamed.

Rape can be prevented by focusing on men and misogyny. All rapes, ever? No. But creating a world with less sexual violence starts with abandoning the awful idea that rape is an inevitable part of life. That’s not naivete—it’s hope and it’s action. And that’s better than complacency any day.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/173298/rape-not-inevitable-zerlina-maxwell-men-and-hope

sid, I agree the conversation needs to change. That's what the woman in the op was saying. The conversation has been it's all on the woman to prevent rape. The conversation should be how to stop the rapists.

sid, you're doing the same thing Jim is. I say men have the power and you take that to say all men have power. I did not say all men have power. And, yes things are changing, but slowly, very slowly.

Okay, feminazi me thinks that framing this issue with the exact wording teaching men not to rape is insulting and sexist, too. I think it also implies women are air-headed dolls not responsible for their own-wellbeing. It encourages gender wars like evidenced here and that is not what this should be about.

The two people I love most in the world are MEN, so while I am a feminist, I am not of the man hating variety. I also think women are grownups and just not pawns in a man's world. I have talked to my son over the years where women in his life were manipulative. It's in the man's interests to be presented with education, too.

Frame it differently. This is consent; this is date rape; these are the consequences of date rape.

I am all for education. 100 percent. I do not think Zerlina appeared a bitch, and she seemed the least nuts of the people on the Hannity clip.

"sid, you're doing the same thing Jim is. I say men have the power and you take that to say all men have power."

I'm saying that the long-standing meme triggers the response. I'm not accusing you personally of anything.

"framing this issue with the exact wording teaching men not to rape is insulting and sexist, too"

Thanks Kath! That's another way to put it.

My point throughout is that all factors need to be considered and understood before we can look at possible solutions. I think of it as being akin to a math problem. You have to establish all the constants and variables in an equation before you can solve it. Leaving out any one component in the equation leads to an incorrect conclusion.

There is no one answer. Even considering everything, the woman in the op is right as far as trying to do the most to stop rape. Most rapes are committed by men. As part of sex ed, teaching men what rape is and what consent is will have the greatest chance of reaching the most men when they are young. The benefit is also that women would learn, too. This could at least go a long way in preventing acquaintance rapes. It certainly goes farther than "arming women" which is the suggestion she was responding to.

http://www.xojane.com/issues/an-invitation-to-rape


31 Things That Are Not An Invitation to Rape

It has recently come to my attention that some folks are having trouble when it comes to learning how not to rape, so I thought I would put together a little 101 for you in the interest of public service. s.e. smith


I know there's some confusion about what rape actually is; in the media, it's depicted as a stranger jumping out from behind a bush, wearing a ski mask, but most rapists are actually known to their victims, and may in fact be intimate with them. Rape is about unwanted sexual activity, period, and it doesn't have to involve strangers or force.

Rape is often characterized by confusion, pushing the target into something she doesn't want to do. Rape happens when someone doesn't say yes; or says no, but isn't listened to. It happens when someone isn't in a fit state to consent. It happens when someone who's willing to be pushy about sex carries that attitude to the logical conclusion. Rape is not neat and tidy, sometimes. It often lies between the lines.

Did a partner not say yes, or indicate consent in some other, clear way? Is a partner clearly uneasy and uncomfortable? Have you talked beforehand about what you both want and expect?

Are you, perhaps, confused on the finer points of when people are asking for it? (Hint: The answer to this question is "never.")

Hopefully this list will serve as a helpful guide of just some of the many situations in which it is not okay to rape people.

1. A short skirt (and/or heels) is not an invitation to rape.

2. Intoxication is not an invitation to rape.

3. Being unable to say no is not an invitation to rape.

4. Being a Native American woman is not an invitation to rape.

5. Being a member of the armed services is not an invitation to rape.

6. Going to a nightclub is not an invitation to rape.

7. Working for a military contractor is not an invitation to rape.

8. Being a student is not an invitation to rape.

9. Being married is not an invitation to rape.

10. Being a farmworker is not an invitation to rape.

11. Being an immigrant is not an invitation to rape.

12. Seeking medical treatment is not an invitation to rape.

13. Being a child is not an invitation to rape.

14. Going to college is not an invitation to rape.

15. Having a promiscuous sexual history is not an invitation to rape.

16. Being out at night is not an invitation to rape.

17. Wearing tight pants is not an invitation to rape.

18. You being drunk and/or high is not an invitation to rape.

19. Not carrying a gun or other weapon is not an invitation to rape.

20. Being transgender is not an invitation to rape.

21. Being a Black woman is not an invitation to rape.

22. Being a sex worker is not an invitation to rape.

23. Hitchhiking is not an invitation to rape.

24. Being in immigration detention is not an invitation to rape.

25. Being an aboriginal or indigenous woman is not an invitation to rape.

26. Being disabled is not an invitation to rape.

27. Being incarcerated is not an invitation to rape.

28. Having tattoos is not an invitation to rape.

29. Meeting online is not an invitation to rape.

30. Being under the influence of drugs is not an invitation to rape.

31. Enjoying BDSM and kink is not an invitation to rape.

Nothing, ever, is an invitation to rape.

No... but any discussion about rape these days seem to imply that it is purely a male phenomenon.

It generally IS. That's why when a female is the rapist it makes headlines. But nobody is suggesting that all males live in perpetual fear and arm themselves 24/7 in order to avoid being raped.

You know, I think in the next little while there are going to be studies done on sex abuse from female predators. They do exist, but there is very little real data on them. My suspicion is that we're going to find out that female perps behave differently and from different motives, kind of the way girls bully differently than boys. Since stats show that girls are more likely to bully their friends and close relations, where boys tend to bully strangers and outcasts, I wonder if that will manifest in how women sexual abusers behave?

Lately, (well , in the last few years, anyway) there has been a rash of female teachers accused and found guilty of abusing male students. And there seems to be some things those cases have in common. The abused boys always seem to be sexually mature (i.e. the women are not true pedophiles from a clinical perspective--they are attracted to sexually functioning partners), though the children themselves can be as young as 10 or 11. They tend to be bright students. They tend to be outsiders--with few friends and/or a less secure social base within the school. And the relationships tend to go on for extended periods of time--unlike male teachers who have been caught, who tend to have multiple victims some of whom were victimized only once or a few times. I for one would like to see some clinical studies of female caregivers and leaders who cross those trust boundries--and find out what goes on in their minds--what makes this ok for them, appealing for them, etc. Maybe we can then educate women on what seems to be going wrong there. I mean, we get training on boundries as teachers--but it's not much more in depth than "don't cross sexual boundries with your students, or you'll get in trouble". I think there is more necessary for both male and female teachers, and maybe it needs to be geared towards the different genders of teachers, since it seems probable that the mindset that leads up to crossing that line may be different.

But the fact that female sexual abuse exists does not take away from the fact that male sexual abuse is a very real and specific problem, or that the situations brought forward by the woman in the op are very real, serious, and justified for discussion and attention. In other words, the fact that women rape should not be used as a way of shutting down discussions about how to prevent and educate men about the realities of male perpitrated rape, and the social, religious, and international norms that have made it such a part of our world.

"Can men be taught not to rape?"

Pretty tough to do when it's the victim's fault.

50 Facts About Rape


Low estimate of the number of women , according to the Department of Justice, raped every year: 300,000

High estimate of the number of women raped, according to the CDC: 1.3 million

Percentage of rapes not reported: 54 percent

A woman's chance of being raped in the US: 1 in 5

Chances that a raped woman conceives compared to one engaging in consensual sex: at least two times as likely

Number of women in the US impregnated against their will each year in the US as a result of rape: 32,000

Number of states in which rapists can sue for custody and visitation: 31

Chances that a woman's body "shuts that whole thing down": 0 in 3.2 billion

Rank of US in the world for rape: 13th

A woman's chance of being raped in college: 1 in 4 or 5

Chances that a Native American woman in the US will be raped: 1 in 3

Percentage of women in Alaska who have suffered sexual assault: 37 percent

Number of rape kits untested by the Houston police force: 6,000-7,000 (Texas ranked second in nation for "forcible rape")

Number of adult men accused of repeatedly gang raping 11-year-old girl in Texas: 14

Quote in the New York Times regarding the rape: "They said she dressed older than her age."

Age of woman raped in Central Park in September, 2012: 73

Number of rape kits left untested in Detroit, listed by Forbes as one of two the most dangerous places for woman to live in the US: 11,303

US state in which, in September 2012, mentally disabled rape victim was required to provide evidence of her "kicking, biting, scratching" in objection to her rape: Connecticut

State seeking to reduce childcare welfare benefits to women cannot provide proof of their pregnancy-causing rapes: Pennsylvannia

Percentage of sexual assault and rape victims under the age of 12: 15 percent

Percentage of men who have been raped: 3 percent

Percentage of rapists who are never incarcerated: 97 perent

Percentage of rapes that college students think are false claims: 50 percent

Percentage of rapes that studies find are false claims: 2-8 percent

Number of rapes reported in the military last year: 16,500

Pentagon's estimated percentage of military assuaults not reported: 80-90 percent

Percentage of military rape victims who were gang raped/raped more than once: 14%/20%

Percentage of military rape victims that are men: 8-37 percent

Percentage of military victims who get an "involuntarily" discharge compared to percentage of charged and accused who are discharged with honor: 90 percent involuntary to 80 percent with honor

Chances an incarcerated person is raped in the US: 1 in 10

Increase in chance that LGTB prisoner is raped: 15x greater chance

Number of men raped that could be counted as legally raped before the FBI changed its definition in December of 2011: 0

Number of rapes noted in commonly used World War II statistics: 0

Number of rapes of WWII concentration camp inmates: Untallied millions

Number of rapes of German women by Russian soldiers at the end of WWII: between 1m and 2m

Number of women raped in 1990s Bosnian conflict: 60,000+

Number of women raped per hour in Congo during war: 48

Country where 12 year old was forced to participate in the rape of his mother: US

Country where women are imprisoned for being raped: Afghanistan

Age of Moroccan rape victim who committed suicide after being forced to marry her rapist: 16

Worldwide number of "child brides" under the age of 18 forced to marry every day: 25,000

Ages of girls forced to marry a 59-year-old at the Tony Alamo Christian Ministry in Arkansas: 8, 14, 15

Estimated number of people, primarily children, sexually abused by priests in the US versus the number of senior Catholic officials found guilty of sexual abuse related crimes in the US: 10,667 to 1

Chances that a woman in the US is raped versus gets breast cancer: 2 to 1

Chances that a victim is "Emergency Raped" by a stranger versus percentage of victims who consider their rapes emergencies: 7 percent versus 100 percent

Percentage of victims of rape who report the use of a weapon: 11 percent

Prison sentences for four men found guilty of participating in gang rapes of two teenage girls in France over two years: one year, six months, suspended sentence

State where in 2012 a doctor is facing the loss of her medical license for providing an abortion to a pregnant10-year old incest rape victim: Kansas

Country where doctors (but not the rapist) were excommunicated for performing a life-saving abortion to nine-year-old incest rape victim: Brazil

Country where major party's vice-presidential candidate wants to criminalize all abortions including rape-related ones, because rape is just "another method of conception": US


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/50-facts-rape_b_2019338.html

Staggering ~

Sooz

huge case in point:

Steubenville Ohio. Huge case of 2 teen boys forcing sex acts on a 16 year old girl who was mostly unconscious. Photos and videos taken and shared around. Tweets about "dead girls" getting raped. Taunts with the girl passed out in the street in her own vomit, half naked, daring each other to piss on her. A video made joking that she was deader than Oj Simpson's wife. Deader than Caylee Anthony. She is SO raped. How do you know she is dead? "Because I saw a picture of her with a wang in her anus and no one sleeps through that".

One guy that took a video of an assault. When asked why he didn't say anything or try to stop it. He said because he didn't know it was rape, that he thought rape was forced.

So yeah, our young men need taught.

I bet this is in response to the media reports after the Steubenville rape verdict yesterday, everyone lamenting about how the verdict would affect the poor boys who had so much potential.

http://www.theonion.com/video/college-b ... agi,19097/

Mmmm... it's from the Onion.

I know.

Ok.
Didn't know if you were familiar with the Onion.
I got caught once (Sid the brat's fault).

Okay. I have a question.

If the guy and girl meet at a club and are both really, really drunk and go to his apt by cab. She says okay, and they have sex. Is this rape?

In the morning neither remembers or actually remembers the name of other person.

They were both clear enough to take a cab and agree to the sex. If it can be considered rape it would be by both, all other things being equal.

From what I have read it is a grey area. It could be.

Seems to me the "grey area" is sorted out by who has the slickest lawyer ~ his will argue she consented [which she did]; hers will argue she was too impaired to give knowing consent [which might be true too] ~ who "wins"? ~

Sooz