I think that as long as anyone blames the victim one little but, it prevents others from reporting rape.....as it has been for ages. It also increases the chance that a rapist will go free.

A good defense attorney would use that to their advantage to place doubt in the minds of a jury, who also may have that mindset.

There is NO other crime where the first consideration is the state of being of the victim, nor should there ever be such a consideration.

As I've said before: If there is no consent, then it is rape.

re: blaming the parents. lol, I had a demon 16 yr old who would tell me she was going to the movies, then go to a party. No way to completely control them, unless you lock them up.

Kathy, I see your point but I believe that allowing your argument allows victim blaming, which I will not engage in. So I won't discuss the two problems together. That's just how I do my part to get the message out there that it is never the victim's fault and victim blaming cannot be tolerated. The conversation about the girl's behavior in Steubenville should not be going on. It is clearly a distraction from the message that the people who took advantage of her were wrong- no excuses.

The conversation about the girl's behavior in Steubenville should not be going on.

I disagree.
Not using it as a warning to others that they are responsible for their safety is inviting this to happen again.

oskar, do you not see how that is saying it's the girl's fault?

No.
I'm saying that repeating a behaviour and expecting different results is foolish.
I'm also saying that a behaviour that increases the risk does exactly that, even though it shouldn't.

Which, taken out of the context in which I wrote it sounds fine. But in connection with the circumstance of rape, it provides an opportunity to blame the victim.

This is the same loggerheads we had when discussing the PA Liquor Control board put out with the girl laying on the bathroom floor.

I don't see it as saying it is the girl's fault. I think it is not in anyone's best interests to say; go to a party, be totally drunk to the point of incapacitation (especially at age 16), and no one will harm you including yourself. I by the way would say the same thing to boys at age 16.

All parents of 16 year old show throw up their hands and not care if their daughters come home or not, too. Sorry, I fully disagree with that, too.

Let's try it this way, chaos.

You are crossing the street sober and a car driven by a drunk driver speeds towards you. You are able to jump out of the way.

You are crossing the street dead drunk and stumbliing; the same car speeds into you and you are struck dead.

Is it your fault the driver of the car was drunk? Did you expect a drunk driver to be careening down the road heading into you? Are you dead even though you weren't to blame????

Walking down a dark alley increases the chance of you getting mugged.
Not walking down a dark alley decreases the chance of you getting mugged.
In neither case are you to blame but in one case you are more likely to get mugged.
Which do you do?

Why would any of the blame or responsibility be on me?

All parents of 16 year old show throw up their hands and not care if their daughters come home or not, too. Sorry, I fully disagree with that, too.

Well holy shit! If that is in response to my remark, I can tell you that isn't what I did. Do you seriously think you can control a 16yo bent on defiance?
I have lived it, have you?

Maybe she said she was staying with a friend?

Geesh, this post is getting bad.

IMO, the responsibility to NOT rape overrides all other issues and in all circumstances.

No one has suggested otherwise.

You aren't to blame. You are just lying dead in the middle of the road.

This teen isn't to blame either. Her life is just ruined. Maybe irreparably.

I am not understanding this whole allocation of blame argument. Social workers are into empowerment. It's our reason for being. Our mission is to advocate for people to have the power to make their own decisions. If a person is lying drunk, she doesn't have any power. She is reliant on the decency of others.

Doesn't always work out well.

Well said, kathyk.

The girl got drunk, her choice. Bad choice. She is responsible if she barfs all over herself, or passes out or whatever she does when drunk. Each individual is responsible for what they do. She is not responsible for what others did to her. They are responsible for what they did to her. It is not a natural assumption that if she went to a party with "friends" and schoolmates and got drunk she would be raped.

That's a good summary, Jeanne. There are two truths here. One is that getting blotto is unwise. The other is that rape is a crime. Those two truths are not in opposition to each other.

While the girl was unwise, she is in no way complicit in the crime of rape.

You don't see it as saying it is the girl's fault, but many people will jump on the victim blaming, and especially because a respected person like you said it. The other things you say are true, but should be a totally different conversation, never lumped in with a discussion of rape, in my opinion. I would never throw up my hands and think it is ok for my daughter to behave like that, however I would never deliver this lecture in connection with her coming home after being victimized. Ever. No matter what.

A teenage girl makes a dumb choice and gets drunk at a party. She is raped and treated like garbage. How do you empower her? Do you tell her well you were the one who got so drunk you passed out? Does she need to hear that she was responsible for her own safety? She was with "friends" and schoolmates. Was she supposed to not trust anyone? Was she supposed to assume they would hurt her if she got drunk. Was she supposed to know how quickly she would get that drunk? She is being called horrible names and is being threatened. Tell her she was in any way responsible or that she should have prevented it and you are asking for suicide. Her life is not ruined but it is changed forever. If she hears that it's ruined she may believe it and turn to drugs etc, become promiscuous since that is what she has been told she is, or kill herself.

She should be angry. She was violated in the worst possible way. She did nothing to deserve that. No one deserves that. You empower her by teaching her to use the anger to help others. You empower her by showing the strength she exhibited by reporting this and fighting. You teach her to show no shame because the shame is not on her. You teach her she is a survivor who does not accept the bs some want to put on her. You do not empower the guys who did it by saying they ruined her life. The lives they ruined should be their own. The guilt is theirs, not hers.

I talk to my daughter about intoxication all the time. I talk to her about making poor decisions, about maybe deciding to have unprotected sex because she is not able to think as clearly as she can without drugs or alcohol. Never would I suggest that she could get raped because of intoxication. It is unacceptable. I would never want her to carry any guilt or responsibility for that. We don't know if the Steubenville girl was drugged- she testified that it was possible and no one can say it wasn't. You don't have to have the conversations together. It doesn't help to make the victim feel guilty. It doesn't help to make the victim feel like she could have prevented something she could not have prevented. How could you do that to your child or yourself?

Does she need to hear that she was responsible for her own safety?

If she isnèt, who is?

So, oskar, you are indeed saying this girl was responsible for the rape. Yeah, that will help her a lot.

No one said that she is responsible for the rape. That is utterly ridiculous and why discussions like this generally break down.

She is responsible for losing her voice; her power to speak.