Not sure there actually is a feminist industry. I think there's a feminist movement. It's responsible for the fact that some women in my family are well-empoloyed in jobs/professions that would otherwise have been closed to them. When were were young marrieds, wife couldn't get a Penny's credit card without my permission. I was a student, she was gainfully employed. She told them to stuff it, and wouldn't shop at Pennys for a couple of decades.

Things have changed. Thank you, Gloria Steinem.

The women are pissed at the rapists. The men are pissed at the rapists...and the feminists.

I fail to see anything wrong with one gender wanting to end violent acts committed against them by calling for educating the gender that contains those that commit the violence.

I don't think so. I actually think people need to be taught to respect one another, but at the same time I think people have to be taught to see through the bullshit. I've been reading all day and I'm having trouble formulating a post.

If hubby or son were around I would ask them what they thought of the question "Can men be taught not to rape?" This sounds like a behaviorist question; people need to be taught everything and learn what they live. I think both of them and the vast majority of men in America have been taught not be rape. .

No doubt about that. But there are those few who're taught that women don't really mean "No!" Women have good cause to be angry about that, and I am not offended.

This is her exact quote: "“If you train men not to grow up to become rapists, you prevent rape.”

Sounds to me like she isn't talking about jabra or any other of the guys on here. She's talking about train them right when they're young.

IMO it should be the same as with sex education. Hopefully, the young people learn it right at home, but reinforcement doesn't hurt.

I think a discussion on consent should be included in the sex education curriculum.

Call me naive, but the "date rape" thing and the "rape by a friend" thing I'm not really very familiar with; what i learned at academy has always influenced my views of rape, and I never viewed rape as a sexual thing per se, but rather an act of vicious anger and control type thing. I guess that view would be of the "stranger rape" thing--

The victim of such a rape would be a random victim who happens to be at the wrong place at the wrong time and regardless of what they are wearing, etc. there would be little they could do to prevent their being the target of such a rapist...

This type of rape I do not think could be prevented anymore than the mass shooting of people by an unhinged lunatic....

i agree that the young woman who was "overpowered" despite her martial arts expertise (?) would most likely be dead had she had her gun.

As for an "ink pen" or "keys" etc being ridiculed by Hannity as weapons of self defense--one could kill an attacker with those weapons...

What do you say, Chaos. Have you signed your husband up for the "don't rape" training yet? Or isn't he included among "men".

I find it incredible that you feel that comment is appropriate, Jim. But I do wish the guy who DID rape me had been taught better, thank you.

Cannalee, the date rape and date by "friends" is also a control and/or anger thing. It is forced against the person's will or after they have been drugged or are so drunk they don't know what's going on. It is not mutually consensual sex and is more a power thing. He wants it, he gets it. For some it is seen as worse than rape by a stranger because there is the betrayal of trust along with the assault.

I'm truly sorry that happened to you, Chaos, but who do you blame - "men" or the guy? Holding entire genders guilty for the actions of a few is not right, nor is it particularly productive in solving the problem.

I agree that it should be taught in sex ed. I also think that, because it is a control issue, young bullies actions should be considered a "red flag" for future potential violent acts, including rape and should be screened/counseled agressively.

Perhaps if parents, schools and churches would strongly promote respect for others in general, it would help.

But Jim, how do we prevent this violent crime?

Do we continue to take action only after the crime is committed, because then we can point to an individual man?

To me, your argument is like saying; 'Why should we teach all teenage girls about sex and pregnancy because not all teenage girls will get pregnant'

I think we should teach men that sex without explicit consent is rape and you can go to jail. They also should know that sex without a condom can lead to a baby and child support for life (slightly different topic but a conversation from teaching 11th grade flashed through my head).

Just because she's laying in your bed drunk doesn't mean it's okay. I think it's rape and totally wrong, but I also think women should be in charge of their own destinies. If the guy was passed out in her bed and she instigated intercourse, would the guy allege rape?

The sex culture is so different today. Back when I was out there, girls/women had sex with boyfriends or would be boyfriends. Now there are lots of "hook ups". Friends meeting for sex supposedly without emotional entanglements, but there was often a lot of entanglement talk the next day in school from the players.

I think teaching and modeling respect and knowing overt consent is necessary is as much as we can do. I am fairly sure the Steubenville kids knew what they did was wrong and they did it anyway.

I think we should teach men that sex without explicit consent is rape and you can go to jail.

I think we need to have a conversation about teaching BOYS, not men. As you pointed out, the sex culture is much different. There have been many cases of young boys who have raped even younger girls.

Holding entire genders guilty for the actions of a few is not right, nor is it particularly productive in solving the problem.

You say that as if we're talking mass castration instead of mass education. Just what, exactly, is the HARM in making the effort to educate boys/men on appropriate sexual boundaries?

I have no idea why you see the OP and pretty much every comment I've made since as "holding entire genders guilty". You jumped to that conclusion, Jim. Not me.

But Jim, how do we prevent this violent crime?

I don't know, John. What I do know is that myself and 99.9 percent of men already know that rape is wrong. We don't need, as the bitch in the opening post claims, any additional " mass education" to tell us that.

Maybe it would help if women were mass educated to not dress like sluts, to stay out of dark areas, to not be alone on the streets late at night, etc. But, of course, anybody who suggests women should take precautions and some responsibility for keeping themselves safe is immediately denigrated as "blaming the victim" and rewarded with being the villain in annual slut walks, etc.

Since rape is often commited by someone known to the victim, your advice about dressing a certain way or staying out of certain places would not be that helpful. Women shouldn't dress attractively for people known to them? Women shouldn't visit the home of friends, attend school, go to dances with classmates, babysit? When I was twelve I was assaulted while walking through the church yard on my way to the girl scout meeting by a boy well known to me. I was friends with his siblings. His dad was a cop.

Dress in a burkha and never appear in public without a male relative-women cause rape in the Muslim world.

queenoftheuniverse wrote:

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Aha! So what you are saying is the mass education of women would have about the same effect as the mass education of men - none.

But you are also making my point for me. You are getting all upset because I suggest that "women" need to get educated but you are all in favor of "men" having to be educated.

Rape. The only crime where the victim is blamed due to her location or clothing. The only crime where the victim is told SHE should have done something differently to prevent the crime.


I am frankly appalled at your responses, jw. Calling the woman in the OP a bitch? How insulting.

Women aren't raped because of what they wear! Are you kidding me? You really have NO idea what you are talking about, yet feel free to insult the women of this board. Shame on me for going to the fair with my family when I was 14, and for wearing shorts in the summer.

How did mass education get into this discussion? Obviously in a civilized society males are taught that rape is a very serious moral and criminal offense. Your parents teach you that. The law teaches it. You can't help but notice men going to prison for it, right? No man has the excuse that he wasn't sure rape wasn't OK. That is not "mass education", like Chinese farmers being taught to revere Chairman Mao.

Two people are arguing on a tv show. The first says rape is a problem. The second says women should be told to carry guns prevent it. The first responds, Why should they have to do that? Tell men not to rape! And somehow from that we imagine re-education camps. And for some reason, the first person is called a bitch, but the second person is not called an asshole.

I don't get it.

Aha! So what you are saying is the mass education of women would have about the same effect as the mass education of men - none.

But you are also making my point for me. You are getting all upset because I suggest that "women" need to get educated but you are all in favor of "men" having to be educated.

No, I am not saying that at all. And I am not getting upset. And I didn't say anything about anyone being educated. This is my first response to you in this conversation and i am challenging your assertions that women cause rape, or are responsible for preventing it.

jim, you appear to be insulted because she said "men" in the interview instead of saying "some men" ~ the conversation was about rape and rapists ~ it's not a stretch to know that she was referring specifically to the men who do rape and not to men generally ~

Sooz