All, all men can do is bear the blame for the actions of a tiny minority of the members of their gender.

Hmmm...kind of like how you blame all feminists for what one woman said that rubbed you the wrong way?

What, men can't promote and encourage NOT raping in the first place? And asking them to join in that effort is an insult?

I agree entirely. If a woman is raped it is, in no way, her fault, and she shouldn't feel the least bit guilty about it. I also agree that the responsibility lies solely on the attacker. But you aren't satisfied with that. You want to punish the entire gender with some kind of massive indoctrination program.

Ah, so education is "punishment". Got it.

Given current rape statistics [which only count reported/known rapes] and the projections for unreported rapes based on those statistics, I'm thinking "tiny minority" is not applicable ~ but I'm curious, jim, how you would identify/choose the "tiny minority" of boys/men who will rape to educate BEFORE they do ~

Sooz

Your words speak for themselves, I don't need any koolaid.

So you've bought into the "all men are rapists" line too. Too bad. I would have thought better of you.

As for identifying them, I don't know. How do we identify future murderers, armed robbers, jay walkers, politicians and assorted other criminals? Should we set up generalized mass indoctrination programs for those crimes too?

Jimwilliam quote - Of course men can participate and most would be more than willing to do so. Bitch in opening post didn't suggest that, though. That's the last thing she would want. Who could she blame then? The rapists? Heck no! There's no money in that for her and her group. She need a nice amorphous broadbased group to blame in order to keep the donations and grants flowing in. Blaming "men" for everything is just the ticket. It's broad enough a term that women can convince themselves that she doesn't really mean their men but narrow enough that there can actually be something to blame.

I just watched the Hannity clip again because I thought I missed something.

I didn't get all of that from her. Where did you get it?

We teach kids about stranger danger. We teach kids about bad touching and that they have the right to say no to bad touching from anyone. So why shouldn't we also teach them about consent and respecting each other's boundaries, especially regarding sex and what constitutes rape?

Jim, your attitude about the OP is really surprising to me. You seem to be taking on the mantle of "I'm-not-a-rapist" very aggressively - could it be that some time in your past, you crossed the line of consent with a woman of your acquaintance? Maybe you took her "no" or "I'm not sure" for a "maybe" and pressed your advantage? So you just assumed it wasn't rape because she gave in to you? And maybe you are realizing now what you did and trying to rationalize your behavior so you don't have to feel like you were one of the bad guys we're talking about?

Jim, I think the analogy is not the best unless you are saying there are a lot of rapists out there like there would be cars at the cross walk. A more accurate analogy would be a black young man like Trayvon walking in a white neighborhood. How dare he. He caused his own murder. He never should have walked in a white neighborhood because he knows there are racists, right? He could have prevented it. And he was wearing a hoodie. Should have dressed differently. He was asking for it, right?

Why does defining and clarifying what consent means represent some evil "indoctrination" to you? Why do you think of it as punishment? Have you never had to sit through some training thing where you already knew the stuff? That happens every day. Since people don't know for sure who knows what, they train everyone.

No where did she blame men for everything or blame all men for anything. That is you and your own sensitivities that turned it into that. What a shame. She was talking from the point of view of a woman who was raped by a "friend". Walking at night or alone or "dressing like a slut" was not involved.

wow jeanne, you made me flash back to the "sexual harassment" classes I think most of us had to sit through at work, back in the 70's and 80's shortly after the laws were enacted. Many large companies still have those.

Jim, a lot of rapes, especially acquaintance rapes, involve guys who think they have the right. They do not think it is rape. They do not understand consent and that no means no. They have some warped idea like what she wore or did or where she was makes the "no" meaningless. They think she really wants it or it's too late to say no. They would never go out and grab a stranger and rape her. They know that's wrong. They are confused about the rules with women they know. They have expectations, she says no and they do it anyway. That is control and power. They think they have the right or they know what she wants better than she does. They need to learn that is rape, too.

right, roseanne, they are still mandatory at many places.

In the military you have to sit through STD classes, sexual harassment classes, money management classes, racial sensitivity classes. I would think the majority of people know these things, but to CYA they make everyone do it. Nothing to get up in arms about or super sensitive about, unless the shoe fits...........

I didn't get all of that from her. Where did you get it?


From reading up on her. And yes, Chaos, I did look at the link in post 14. My eyes sort of glazed over with the same old/same old crap on the very first page about "the culture of rape". Yawwwwn!!!!!

Ooooo we've called him a rapist and he didn't like it, therefore he must be a rapist. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

I have to admit I'm amazed at what has been posted on this topic. I never would have thought that the issue of rape would be so divisive.

It's one of those topics that brings out beliefs and attitudes that you never suspected in people. I remember the first time I sparred with a certain "Feeble Mind" on another board about a well publicised gang rape of a young girl. He accused me of being a bitch, unfeminine, bad at my job (he knew I was a teacher), hating boys, and a bunch of other stuff. Before that point, I'd thought him one of the more intelligent posters on the boards that I'd met.

Jim, I've got to be honest, I'm astounded. I knew that you and I didn't see eye to eye completely on this issue, from previous threads, but I've never seen you be anything but thoughtful and polite and well intentioned when expressing your views. Your use of words like "bitch" and "feminazi" seem really out of what I have previously thought of as your character. I"m not sure I've ever heard you swear before.

However, I asked my husband and son if men can be taught not to rape and they looked at me as if I was from outer space and said, "No" They continued that rapists know rape is wrong but do it anyway. I don't think they saw it as labeling the entire gender rapists, but they didn't think this was a viable approach to discussion.

I am fairly sure they'd have had no problem if I'd have framed the discussion differently and said in middle/high school sex ed should they have a unit on consent and the definition of date rape.

The campaign has been so popular, many other cities in Canada and around the world inquiring about the posters and using them in bar and club bathrooms, transit stations and campus facilities. According to the Globe and Mail the number of reported sexual assaults fell by 10 per cent last year in Vancouver, after the ads were featured around the city. It was the first time in several years that there was a drop in sexual assault activity.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/12/01 ... 24228.html

I think a drop in sexual assaults after a campaign designed to reduce sexual assaults is launched is proof that these things DO work.

Chaos, I just saw a TV ad that uses the same tag "Don't be that guy" targeting drinking and driving. I didn't know about the other one. I wish they would put that on tv too!

jim, I don't know what's going on with you but a number of your posts and especially your last post are out-of-line ~ I'm stunned by your attitude and your assumptions about my/others attitudes ~ the only one of us flaunting the "all men are rapists" meme is ... you ~ the "all men are rapists" chant is your interpretation based on <whatever> ~ perhaps you live in a different world than the rest of us do ~ FACT: rape in all its forms [stranger, acquaintance, etc] is epidemic today ~ and getting worse ~

For me, you've lost or willingly ignored all context ~ to paraphrase you: "Too bad. I did think and expect better of you."

Sooz

Jim... I don't know what disappoints me more: your attitude or your expression.

Personally... I believe rape is about power and control moreso than it is about sex or uncontrolled desire. Hence, we are just as unlikely to be able to teach anyone not to rape without addressing those characteristics of the human psyche. Females are not the only victims of rape - just ask the skinny male kid who spent a few nights in lock-up for smoking a joint why he's walking a little strangely or why he can't sit straight. The question assumes that males are the only perpetrators of rape, and that again is false. Female-on-male rape is rarely reported for the same reasons as male spousal abuse victims are rarely reported. Men are ridiculed by the predominately male legal system - "What's the matter? You can't CONTROL the little wifey?" Make no mistake: that does happen more often than most would be willing to acknowledge.

If we as a society really hope to do something about rape, then we have to look at ALL acts of violence, because rape is just another tool in the tool kit of those who are predisposed to committing violence on other human beings.

sid, I know you are not saying males are raped as frequently as females are raped? Yes, men do need to realize they, too, can be raped and some are. Most rapes of men are done by other men just as most rapes of women are done by men. The statistics on both are not nearly accurate because often neither the men nor the women report them. I think that the clarfication we are suggesting would help reduce rape for both men and women.