We're basically talking all around a disagreement about what kind of world we inhabit. I'm coming up on 70. Raised poor, military during viet nam, lived lots of places, have had to do some hard things. The world I see around me does not require me to pack heat. I throve without that. When I meet somebody on the street, I don't ask friend or foe. I don't use my time worrying about tyranny, trusting the collective influence of 300,000,000 citizens' varied and often conflicting interests to dilute and deflect the rise of any tyrant. I'm not threatened by the UN. My view of people is that they are mostly all trying to get along as best they can and they are not a threat to me. There are some bad apples,but not that many. And once in a while some of us go haywire in the head, like some of us get hemorrhoids, and need to be dealt with.

I think most people are like me.

Some people view their environment as mostly potentially hostile. By default they view people as potentially hostile or dangerous. They view themselves as players in the drama of good vs evil, liberty under constant threat, ultimately needing to be ready to deal death to someone who deserves it. Needing to be an independent, free-lance defender of the homeland against a sneak attack by the foe.

I believe that's why we think so differently about the gun issue in this country. I think we're all trying to promote our view as the more accurate one. I think mine is the more accurate one, and the one that leads our society down a healthier path.

Are people worried about George III coming to power in the USA? I don't understand worrying about a tyrant coming to power at all. I do not fear the government. Don't we elect people? I don't worry about my freedom. I think we as citizens of the US would have been just as free without going to VietNam, Iraq or Afghanistan. I think the military fighting for our freedom theme is a marketing ploy.

I think the whole gun issue is rooted in control. Those who own guns feel like they are in charge of their own destiny if they are armed. They consider the rest of us defenseless weinies. We have to rely on the police to care of us while the armed are in control of their own destiny.

These are the people who think they're living in a Tom Clancy novel.

One thing I have to grant the gun nutjobs. Via their arguments I learn so much about Hitler, Gandhi (even his commonly used first name I had wrong!) , the Romans and real fascinating stuff about dictatorships.
I'll have to check if I'm still in the same universe.

Heck!
I just learned that I live in a dictatorship and I never knew it. How dumb can you get?

What about all those times Mother Theresa defended the poor with the snub-nosed .38 in her wimple holster? You don't get that stuff in lib history books.

I'm a believer that everyone is entitled to her/his own opinion ... BUT NOT TO HER/HIS OWN FACTS ~ deep fear, both rational and irrational, can make people act in ways they may never have thought themselves capable of ~ one of the many problems I have with the entire gun control/regulation "debate" is with those who prey on the "gun lovers" susceptibility to the massive misinformation intentionally shoveled to boost their fears ~

Sooz

You want to sell something to somebody, you create a need in their minds. Then you offer your product as a way to satisfy the need. And if there's a competitor, something other than your product competing to satisfy the need, you create doubt about it.

The world and your neighborhood are dangerous places, Mrs. American, you really need a pistol in your purse. You say that's why we have police? Well, you know they're quite unreliable...

This may sound horrible but I am just saying it like I have observed over the years. We have lived in major cities... Dayton, Oh, Atlanta Ga., St. Louis MO, Miami FL and Houston TX... now we live in the Ozarks of Missouri in a very small rural area. What I have observed with the people who hang tight to their guns, display their confederate flag on their pickem up truck, wave their Bibles yet they don't go to church, and hate Obama is the one thing, IMO, they all have in common and that is "pure ignorance! " Give me the city folks over these nuts anyday. The city folks I know, have met and worked with down through the past 51 years that I worked before retirement really had an understanding of "reality" whereas the majority of rural folks here still believe you need to pack a lunch to drive 62 miles to the closest mall.

I think the generalizations are unhelpful in the debate, mostly because they are untrue, but you tell yourself them to somehow make yourself feel superior in the debate.

See, I feel somewhat like GT. I don't fear people or their intentions, for the most part. But, I own a gun. 2 guns in fact.

My husband feels no certain way, and certainly not a derogatory way, about those who prefer to not own guns. He doesn't feel superior or feel like they are wienies. His life experiences are vastly different than mine. I have never had people actively trying to kill me with guns. I have not protected my life or the lives of other by using a gun. He has, that has shaped him in every facet of his life, even here at home. But, if it makes you feel better to put both of us in the same category, I guess nothing I can say will change that. I refuse to put any of you (other than 1) in any type of category. In fact, I understand your postilion, which makes the debate for me vastly different, because I don't feel like any of you understand me or my husband.

I suppose you can go back to saying we both have small penises or some other defect. I am willing to debate the topic, because I DO think it is important, but you guys (most of you) make it really hard because most of what I see are just insults.

I bet you do have a smaller penis.

Even smaller than you!






(that really is a joke!)

MP, I'm sorry you feel that way ~ the problem I see is that in the collective US psyche, events like Sandy Hook [which, sadly, is far from being unusual] lumps ALL gun owners [responsible gun owners like you and hubby and the "cowboys"] together as one ~ just like in elementary school where if one kidlet is acting up the whole class suffers the consequences ~

Personally, I don't like guns ~ never have, never will ~ not even after decades with a cop/detective significant other ~ I support regulation and I support enforcement, both in types of guns available to the public and in the size of clips ~ I want gun show loopholes, like no background check, closed ~ and, maybe most of all, I want responsible gun owners to speak louder than the Wayne LaPierres ~

Sooz

I agree with ALL the bolded. I do speak out and I do try to have discussions about it with people, but it is hard to wade through the insults.

Why do you own 2 guns, mpicky? Do you carry one with you at all times? Why or why not?

I have a handgun for conceal carry and my husband gave me a gun this summer more for home defense. He is gone a lot (every 3rd day and this year he was gone for the Marines 2 different times, a month each time) and he feels better knowing I could defend myself. We were cased this summer and one night while he was at work, someone backed a truck up and loaded his motorcycle on it. So, that raised some concern for him. i do not carry at all time. Most of the week I go to work and back and it is 2 miles one way. My husband does carry at all times and he does wish I would carry mine more (to the point he threatens to steal my gun because he likes it).


I train about 8 hours a month with both the guns. Brian owns more than 2 guns.

So it is a type of fear then...or paranoia since the casing/theft? I can't say how I would feel or what I would do, had my private space/property been invaded as yours has.

It's a personal decision that is yours to make. I hate guns. I've seen what a gun kept in the home can potentially do in the hands of an angry drunk and in the hands of a bi-polar family member.

I honestly don't know what I would do if I lived in a metro area with high crime. Sooz has the luxury of living in a secure building. She may also have a different opinion if she lived in an individual home. It's a matter of perspective I think.

I am so glad that I live in a country/city that has minimal guns and gun crimes. Even when we lived downtown, I didn't feel the need to have a gun. I've been away from the US so long, that I can't really tell you what I would do now.

mpicky - I apologize if my control statement was insulting to you. I think that I was too flip in how I presented it, but I still think gunownership is rooted in control. A gunowner thinking that his personal/property protection is primarily his responsibility, and he doesn't want to rely on police to be the sole source of support. I was in part irritated by that rigby guy saying something to the effect you are nothing without a gun.

I will admit I don't understand you. Brian being in war and tasked to protect himself and others from armed combatants shaped his view in a way I can imagine, but will never fully know.

I live in Linwood, NJ which is basically a middle class town of 7000. We're an hour from Philadelphia and two and a half hours from NYC. There have been two murders here since we moved here 5 years ago. One of them was a 65 yo paranoid schizophrenic who knifed his 88 yo neighbor. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity and sentenced to 45 years in a mental facility. The second was a 40-something doctor's wife who was murdered in her bedroom with a gun from her gun collection. No arrest was made in this case which occurred this summer.

I would like your opinion on getting semi automatic/automatic weapons off the street.

For years I defended the right to bear arms and own guns--i got rid of my guns for private reasons--obviously I thought the owning of a gun carried more risks than being without a gun...but I think that is a decision that every person should have the right to make--their choice IOW...

Just a comment on "cosmopolitan people vs rural people"--when Sandy struck the coast, there was people crying and yelling about being without utilities and I do indeed feel for them, having gone without heat myself about 4 yrs ago, but I noticed that when thousands of Arkansans were without heat for weeks that there was no crying on the news about the situation, which was indeed horrible: the news media couldn't even get back to some of these people...they just quietly stoically survived, neighbor helping neighbor. Most of the rural people I know are perhaps guilty of their prejudices, but they are tough and helpful to those who need their help.

We come from different cultures MPicky and while I disagree with you about carrying guns, or even having them for that matter, I can understand why you and your husband have decided to "carry".

The real problem, as I see it, is that you are caught in the catch 22 of the inherent tension between personal security and collective security. Its the logic of the "arms race" and it goes something like this. Because you dont feel secure you decide to get a gun to defend yourself. But, you aren't the only one who feels that way, lots of other people feel the same way and many of them also buy guns. And what that means is that you aren't more secure because you have a gun, you are less secure because now you are surrounded by many other people who might or might not be "carrying" as well.

I think the US has dug itself so deeply into that paradox that its difficult for people to even recognise the primary problem. Its not semi-automatics or even assault weapons, although I think both should be banned, its handguns.

And, given the ease travelling from state to state or city to city, the only way to effectively deal with the whole issue has to be at a national level. I can't see that happening .....

I don't feel afraid, I want to say my husband doesn't either, but he is always ON. It is hard to explain, but he uses colors, where white would be 100% relaxed and comfortable, he is rarely ever white, even in the house. But he isn't really afraid of anything. We just know there ARE bad people out there. For him to train me is peace of mind.

I would have never been in a house with my ex and a gun. Angry drunk to a T. There are plenty of people I would not want to have a gun. I trust my husband 100% with the gun and he trusts me, or he wouldn't give me a gun and train me to use it.Neither of us are hot heads or violent. For all of his training in martial arts, MMA, wrestling, hand to hand combat, etc, he has NEVER in the 8.5 years I have known him been in a confrontation, either physical or voices raised. He doesn't lose control of his emotions, his self, at ALL. We have to have that trust between us in order to have a home with guns. I can understand not wanting certain people to have a gun around you.

Mpicky--most of what I object to about private gun ownership is clear in your last post. How is the government supposed to be able to tell between your first husband and your second, as far as the right to own a gun is concerned? He fooled you enough that you married and had children with him, and you're an intelligent woman. How is a government test going to do better than that?

The bottom line is that as soon as private citizens are allowed to own guns, no matter how stringent the controls are placed on that process, some nut is going to end up with a gun in his hand. If he's not a nut when he gets the gun, he might be down the road, after a couple of rejections and a good alcohol and drug habit, a schizophrenic break, or a hundred other things happen to him. And everyone else is going to do their best to make sure they have more firepower than he has, turning the entire process into a private ownership arms race.

Yes, some bad guys have guns. Yes, a small percentage of people might be able to protect themselves from bad guys with a weapon. (albeit, smaller than the percentage of people who will injure themselves with their own weapons accidentally). It's not a good enough reason to cause the chaos that private gun ownership causes.

What we should be doing is going after the manufacturers at the same time we go after private ownership. Guns don't work forever. Up the drives to get weapons turned in. Limit the distribution of new weapons. Put the manufacturers out of business. Let the old guns rust.

And let the police take the streets back.

Because you dont feel secure you decide to get a gun to defend yourself. But, you aren't the only one who feels that way, lots of other people feel the same way and many of them also buy guns.
And what that means is that you aren't more secure because you have a gun, you are less secure because now you are surrounded by many other people who might or might not be "carrying" as well.

Good way to phrase that! It's a vicious circle that can only be ended by stringent laws and dedicated enforcement of those laws combined with an excellent buy-back program such as the one enacted in Australia.

To be honest, I don't think a buy-back will work in the US. The citizens cling too tightly to their guns and the amendment they <think> gives them the right to have them. That, combined with the sheer numbers of guns out there and the reluctance of USians to pay one red cent in extra taxes (even if temporary), would be a detriment.

I wasn't intelligent at 20. I was without a family and desperate to have one. I use myself as a test case as to why you should not get married at 20.


I agree it is a sort of arms race, as I don't want to be the one that gives up my guns before the bad guys lose theirs. So no, I would not sell back my guns, nor participate in any type of voluntary recall of them. Probably not a mandatory one either, as I doubt the bad guys are going to do either. So it sucks all around and I recognize that.


I think going after the manufacturers is a key. They produce guns knowing some will go to black markets. I also think private sales should be outlawed or regulated, same with gun shows. I have said numerous times that training should be mandatory, as well.

And, allowing the police to "take the streets back" is only going to focus the attention on one sector of our population. I think the police already overstep their bounds in many cases. They are people too and I am not entirely trustful they can do the job fairly.