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PostPosted: 06/05/13 3:57 pm • # 1 
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What criteria would you use?
How would we compare to other species?
Have we improved over the centuries?


Any thoughts?


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PostPosted: 06/05/13 4:09 pm • # 2 
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PostPosted: 06/05/13 6:44 pm • # 3 
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A lost cause.


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PostPosted: 06/05/13 7:13 pm • # 4 
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i like turtles.


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PostPosted: 06/05/13 8:13 pm • # 5 
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Using John's context of "centuries", I see human progress as quite amazing ~ the discoveries and inventions are off the charts ~ and continuing ~ but there is, of course, the other side of the coin where "some" humans have not learned from past failures or are so locked into their own fears of progress that they seem to be from another world ~

I'm not sure there's a valid comparison to "other species" ~ I see human evolution as the result of the ability to learn and adapt ~ but I see animal evolution as a natural process to survive the elements and environment ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 06/05/13 8:33 pm • # 6 
What do we consider to be success? We are ruining the environment, destroying other species, killing off each other, allowing people to die from curable and preventable diseases and on and on. Is that learning and adapting? If we survived by killing off the other species would that make us a success? If rich countries survived because poor people elsewhere and here died, would that make us a success? Or is true success working with everything and everyone else so that we can all survive?

Humans have the potential to do wonderful things. We have done some, maybe. But, in my view we have mostly failed. As long as little children anywhere are suffering horrible deaths from starvation and preventable/curable diseases, I give the human race an F. I don't even give an E for effort.


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PostPosted: 06/05/13 9:11 pm • # 7 
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Thanks to all of you for your replies.

I must say I'm surprised how much some of the comments are similar to my own thoughts.

If aliens ever do visit our planet, I wonder if we would be the species they would find most interesting?

Remember the one Star Trek movie where some alien probe is approaching Earth, but no one can figure out how it's communicating? Spock says something like, "Human arrogance assumes the message is for them" and it turns out to be sent for whales.

If we consider ourselves the rulers or caretakers of the planet, we're doing horrible job. It would be better if we viewed ourselves as a life-form that is sharing this planet, not owning it. And we share it across time as well.

Life isn't about what you can take for yourself but what you can leave for others.


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 12:04 am • # 8 
A+

The human race is a race of gods. No other species can comprehend what we can comprehend, or has accomplished what we have accomplished. We have art, literature, music, theater, culture, history, we've created air conditioning, automobiles, flying machines, space ships, and have split the atom. We can capture images and sound for playback after the fact. We can build and create anything.

No other species comes close to being able to do what we can do.

I think there's probably nothing we cannot accomplish once we set our minds to it.

When we explore the cosmos, we might very well discover that we humans are the most intelligent life form in the entire Universe.

We are truly a race of gods.


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 7:20 am • # 9 
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I recognize human advancements, but I see at least as many self-imposed human limitations ~ our knowledge of our own galaxy is limited ~ and we have little, if any, knowledge of other galaxies ~ I've long believed, and posted, that I see it as supreme arrogance to assume we are the highest rung on the ladder ~

Sooz


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 8:22 am • # 10 
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Comparing humans to anything else is, IMO, nonsense since each has evolved with unique characteristics.
Might as well compare rocks to trees.


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 8:26 am • # 11 
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When we explore the cosmos, we might very well discover that we humans are the most intelligent life form in the entire Universe.

We are truly a race of gods.


Sorry SciFi, but it's that sort of thinking that comes from the religious right and is used for their argument for a "God" and creation. Even if we are the most intelligent, that won't make us gods. It only makes us more evolved.

The earth was once considered the center of the universe. ;)


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 8:45 am • # 12 
I think humans are flawed as individuals and as a species, but as good as it gets. We are built with weaknesses or the species would not have needed each other to survive, and we'd have died out.

This question reminds me I had better quick read that Sociology book I will be teaching in the fall.


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 8:46 am • # 13 
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SciFiGuy wrote:
A+

The human race is a race of gods. No other species can comprehend what we can comprehend, or has accomplished what we have accomplished. We have art, literature, music, theater, culture, history, we've created air conditioning, automobiles, flying machines, space ships, and have split the atom. We can capture images and sound for playback after the fact. We can build and create anything.

No other species comes close to being able to do what we can do.

I think there's probably nothing we cannot accomplish once we set our minds to it.

When we explore the cosmos, we might very well discover that we humans are the most intelligent life form in the entire Universe.

We are truly a race of gods.



Oh, the arrogance...


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 9:05 am • # 14 
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SciFiGuy wrote:
A+

The human race is a race of gods. No other species can comprehend what we can comprehend, or has accomplished what we have accomplished. We have art, literature, music, theater, culture, history, we've created air conditioning, automobiles, flying machines, space ships, and have split the atom. We can capture images and sound for playback after the fact. We can build and create anything.

No other species comes close to being able to do what we can do.

I think there's probably nothing we cannot accomplish once we set our minds to it.

When we explore the cosmos, we might very well discover that we humans are the most intelligent life form in the entire Universe.

We are truly a race of gods.




SciFi, thanks for presenting an alternate viewpoint. It's one with which Gene Roddenberry would probably agree, but not H.G. Wells.

I would say that much of what you listed are things we have created to make up for our lack of abilities. As an animal we cannot fly, so we created airplanes. Other things you list - art, literature, music, theater - are all basically ways to communicate.

I think it's fair to ask; What humans are capable of doing that no other species we know of can do?

Perhaps the answer to that question is that we can think and contemplate beyond the here and now. For example, we wonder if there is life on other planets. I can't imagine any other animal doing that.


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 10:19 am • # 15 
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The Lowest Animal
By: Mark Twain.


I have been studying the traits and dispositions of the lower animals (so-called), and contrasting them with the traits and dispositions of man. I find the result humiliating to me. For it obliges me to renounce my allegiance to the Darwinian theory of the Ascent of Man from the Lower Animals; since it now seems plain to me that the theory ought to be vacated in favor of a new and truer one, this new and truer one to be named the Descent of Man from the Higher Animals.
 
In proceeding toward this unpleasant conclusion I have not guessed or speculated or conjectured, but have used what is com­monly called the scientific method. That is to say, I have sub­jected every postulate that presented itself to the crucial test of actual experiment, and have adopted it or rejected it according to the result. Thus I verified and established each step of my course in its turn before advancing to the next. These experiments were made in the London Zoological Gardens, and covered many months of painstaking and fatiguing work.
 
Before particularizing any of the experiments, I wish to state one or two things, which seem to more properly belong in this place than further along. This, in the interest of clearness. The massed experiments established to my satisfaction certain gener­alizations, to wit:
 
1. That the human race is of one distinct species. It exhibits slight variations (in color, stature, mental caliber, and so on) due to climate, environment, and so forth; but it is a species by itself, and not to be confounded with any other.
 
2. That the quadrupeds are a distinct family, also. This fam­ily exhibits variations (in color, size, food preferences, and so on; but it is a family by itself).
 
3. That the other families (the birds, the fishes, the insects, the reptiles, etc.) are more or less distinct, also. They are in the procession. They are links in the chain, which stretches down from the higher animals to man at the bottom.
 
Some of my experiments were quite curious. In the course of my reading I had come across a case where, many years ago, some hunters on our Great Plains organized a buffalo hunt for the entertainment of an English earl. They had charming sport. They killed seventy-two of those great animals; and ate part of one of them and left the seventy-one to rot. In order to determine the differ­ence between an anaconda and an earl (if any) I caused seven young calves to be turned into the anaconda’s cage. The grateful reptile immediately crushed one of them and swallowed it, then lay back satisfied. It showed no further interest in the calves, and no disposition to harm them. I tried this experiment with other anacondas; always with the same result. The fact stood proven that the difference between an earl and an anaconda is that the earl is cruel and the anaconda isn’t; and that the earl wantonly destroys what he has no use for, but the anaconda doesn’t. This seemed to suggest that the anaconda was not descended from the earl. It also seemed to suggest that the earl was descended from the anaconda, and had lost a good deal in the transition.
 
I was aware that many men who have accumulated more millions of money than they can ever use have shown a rabid hunger for more, and have not scrupled to cheat the ignorant and the helpless out of their poor servings in order to partially appease that appetite. I furnished a hundred different kinds of wild and tame animals the opportunity to accumulate vast stores of food, but none of them would do it. The squirrels and bees and certain birds made accumulations, but stopped when they had gathered a winter s supply, and could not be persuaded to add to it either honestly or by chicane. In order to bolster up a tottering reputa­tion the ant pretended to store up supplies, but I was not de­ceived. I know the ant. These experiments convinced me that there is this difference between man and the higher animals: he is avaricious and miserly; they are not.
 
In the course of my experiments I convinced myself that among the animals man is the only one that harbors insults and injuries, broods over them, waits till a chance offers, then takes revenge. The passion of revenge is unknown to the higher animals.
 
Roosters keep harems, but it is by consent of their concu­bines; therefore no wrong is done. Men keep harems but it is by brute force, privileged by atrocious laws, which the other sex was allowed no hand in making. In this matter man occupies a far lower place than the rooster.
 
Cats are loose in their morals, but not consciously so. Man, in his descent from the cat, has brought the cats looseness with him but has left the unconsciousness behind (the saving grace which excuses the cat). The cat is innocent, man is not.
 
Indecency, vulgarity, obscenity (these are strictly confined to man); he invented them. Among the higher animals there is no trace of them. They hide nothing; they are not ashamed. Man, with his soiled mind, covers himself. He will not even enter a drawing room with his breast and back naked, so alive are he and his mates to indecent suggestion. Man is The Animal that Laughs. But so does the monkey, as Mr. Darwin pointed out; and so does the Australian bird that is called the laughing jackass. No!  Man is the Animal that Blushes. He is the only one that does it or has occasion to.
 
At the head of this article we see how three monks were burnt to death a few days ago, and a prior put to death with atrocious cruelty. Do we inquire into the details? No; or we should find out that the prior was subjected to unprintable muti­lations. Man (when he is a North American Indian) gouges out his prisoners eyes; when he is King John, with a nephew to render untroublesome, he uses a red-hot iron; when he is a reli­gious zealot dealing with heretics in the Middle Ages, he skins his captive alive and scatters salt on his back; in the first Richards time he shuts up a multitude of Jew families in a tower and sets fire to it; in Columbus’s time he captures a family of Spanish Jews and (but that is not printable; in our day in England a man is fined ten shillings for beating his mother nearly to death with a chair, and another man is fined forty shillings for having four pheasant eggs in his possession without being able to satisfacto­rily explain how he got them). Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one that inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it. It is a trait that is not known to the higher animals. The cat plays with the frightened mouse; but she has this excuse, that she does not know that the mouse is suffering. The cat is moderate (inhumanly moderate: she only scares the mouse, she does not hurt it; she doesn’t dig out its eyes, or tear off its skin, or drive splinters under its nails) man-fashion; when she is done playing with it she makes a sudden meal of it and puts it out of its trouble. Man is the Cruel Animal. He is alone in that distinction.
 
The higher animals engage in individual fights, but never in organized masses. Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and with calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out, as the Hessians did in our Revolu­tion, and as the boyish Prince Napoleon did in the Zulu war, and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.
 
Man is the only animal that robs his helpless fellow of his country takes possession of it and drives him out of it or destroys him. Man has done this in all the ages. There is not an acre of ground on the globe that is in possession of its rightful owner, or that has not been taken away from owner after owner, cycle after cycle, by force and bloodshed.
 
Man is the only Slave. And he is the only animal who en­slaves. He has always been a slave in one form or another, and has always held other slaves in bondage under him in one way or another. In our day he is always some mans slave for wages, and does that mans work; and this slave has other slaves under him for minor wages, and they do his work. The higher animals are the only ones who exclusively do their own work and provide their own living.
 
Man is the only Patriot. He sets himself apart in his own country, under his own flag, and sneers at the other nations, and keeps multitudinous uniformed assassins on hand at heavy ex­pense to grab slices of other peoples countries, and keep them from grabbing slices of his. And in the intervals between cam­paigns, he washes the blood off his hands and works for the universal brotherhood of man, with his mouth.
 
Man is the Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Ani­mal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion, several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself, and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother’s path to happiness and heaven. He was at it in the time of the Caesars, he was at it in Mahomet’s time, he was at it in the time of the Inquisition, he was at it in France a couple of cen­turies, he was at it in England in Mary’s day, he has been at it ever since he first saw the light, he is at it today in Crete (as per the telegrams quoted above) he will be at it somewhere else tomor­row. The higher animals have no religion. And we are told that they are going to be left out, in the Hereafter. I wonder why? It seems questionable taste.
 
Man is the Reasoning Animal. Such is the claim. I think it is open to dispute. Indeed, my experiments have proven to me that he is the Unreasoning Animal. Note his history, as sketched above. It seems plain to me that whatever he is he is not a reasoning animal. His record is the fantastic record of a maniac. I consider that the strongest count against his intelligence is the fact that with that record back of him he blandly sets himself up as the head animal of the lot: whereas by his own standards he is the bottom one.
 
 
In truth, man is incurably foolish. Simple things which the other animals easily learn, he is incapable of learning. Among my experiments was this. In an hour I taught a cat and a dog to be friends. I put them in a cage. In another hour I taught them to be friends with a rabbit. In the course of two days I was able to add a fox, a goose, a squirrel and some doves. Finally a monkey. They lived together in peace; even affectionately.
 
 
Next, in another cage I confined an Irish Catholic from Tipperary, and as soon as he seemed tame I added a Scotch Presbyterian from Aberdeen. Next a Turk from Constantinople; a Greek Christian from Crete; an Armenian; a Methodist from the wilds of Arkansas; a Buddhist from China; a Brahman from Benares. Finally, a Salvation Army Colonel from Wapping. Then I stayed away two whole days. When I came back to note results, the cage of Higher Animals was all right, but in the other there was but a chaos of gory odds and ends of turbans and fezzes and plaids and bones and flesh not a specimen left alive. These Reasoning Animals had disagreed on a theological detail and carried the matter to a Higher Court.
 
One is obliged to concede that in true loftiness of character, Man cannot claim to approach even the meanest of the Higher Animals. It is plain that he is constitutionally incapable of ap­proaching that altitude; that he is constitutionally afflicted with a Defect, which must make such approach forever impossible, for it is manifest that this defect is permanent in him, indestructible, ineradicable.
 
 
I find this Defect to be the Moral Sense. He is the only animal that has it. It is the secret of his degradation. It is the quality, which enables him to do wrong. It has no other office. It is in capable of performing any other function. It could never hate been intended to perform any other. Without it, man could do no wrong. He would rise at once to the level of the Higher Animals.
 
Since the Moral Sense has but the one office, the one capacity (to enable man to do wrong) it is plainly without value to him. It is as valueless to him as is disease. In fact, it manifestly is a disease. Rabies is bad, but it is not so bad as this disease. Rabies enables a man to do a thing, which he could not do when in a healthy state: kill his neighbor with a poisonous bite. NC) one is the better man for having rabies: The Moral Sense enables a man to do wrong. It enables him to do wrong in a thousand ways. Rabies is an innocent disease, compared to the Moral Sense. No one, then, can be the better man for having the Moral Sense. What now, do we find the Primal Curse to have been? Plainly what it was in the beginning: the infliction upon man of the Moral Sense; the ability to distinguish good from evil; and with it, necessarily, the ability to do evil; for there can be no evil act without the presence of consciousness of it in the doer of it.
 
And so I find that we have descended and degenerated, from some far ancestor (some microscopic atom wandering at its pleasure between the mighty horizons of a drop of water perchance) insect by insect, animal by animal, reptile by reptile, down the long highway of smirch less innocence, till we have reached the bottom stage of development (namable as the Human Being). Below us, nothing.
 


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 10:20 am • # 16 
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that was a reply to john's question. fyi.


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 11:08 am • # 17 
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macroscopic wrote:
that was a reply to john's question. fyi.


Also works as a response to SciFi too.


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 12:28 pm • # 18 
I'm closer to sci's worldview than Mark Twain's. Is that arrogance? I don't really think so. Hopeful, with some pragmatism mixed in.

I don't think much about outer space and other civilizations. If there are advanced space civilizations, Good, I hope they are happy. If they want us to know about them, I guess they will tell us.

I think men are imperfect, but we do wonderful things, too. I prefer to focus on some of the good stuff and try to do what I can do.


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 4:25 pm • # 19 
i forget who said it, but some guy said one could judge a civilization by how it treats its weakest most helpless citizens... With a few exceptions perhaps, it has been my observation that most animals (mammals at least) do everything within their power, up to and including dying, to protect their young...

When humans finally get to the point of respecting/loving their young as much as animals do, then I will think perhaps we have arrived....


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 5:54 pm • # 20 
Maybe we would grade based on living up to our potential. Making things....we may get an ok grade. However, when we talk about things, not all have those things. Air conditioning is nice. Some have it. Many many others don't even have a place to put it, electricity to run it, or even enough food or water to care about it. The human race isn't just the people who have those great things. If we used the great things to help those who need then maybe we would get a good grade as the human race. Instead, so many of those great things are part of the destruction of the envronment. Is that even really progress? If I'm giving a grade to the human race it has to include all. Or do we not consider those who do not contribute to making the things?


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PostPosted: 06/06/13 8:55 pm • # 21 
i agree with Grumpyauntjeanne: while there are children in parts of the world dying of starvation, when there are children being sold into sex slavery, when whole generations of people are still dying of AIDS, TB, etc. while others of us sit cool and comfy and well fed then we as a human race have a long ways to go.....

My biggest beef with America is how we can make sure our old folks have medical care and insurance while many children go without...the children should come first. Even animals know that,.


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PostPosted: 06/07/13 9:22 am • # 22 
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Macro - The Lowest Animal By Mark Twain

Thanks for that, Macro. I always enjoy Twain's viewpoint.


Kathy - I think men are imperfect, but we do wonderful things, too. I prefer to focus on some of the good stuff and try to do what I can do.

Perhaps it's good we have have those like you. We need to be reminded of "the good stuff" so we can focus on doing more of it.


Cannalee - i forget who said it, but some guy said one could judge a civilization by how it treats its weakest most helpless citizens...

I think it was Gandhi who said you can judge a nation by how it treats its animals.


Jeanne - If we used the great things to help those who need then maybe we would get a good grade as the human race.

A good point. We've never seemed to figure out how get "the good stuff" to all people.


A few thoughts...

Animals don't always treat their young with care. For example, male hippos have been known to kill young hippos of other fathers.

It's all part of evolution. Nature usually has a way of working things out, but it is often cruel and unfair. Have you ever seen a lion take down a gazelle?

While the gazelle knows what it is experiencing - the fear of being chased, the pain of the lions teeth - it presumably doesn't know why. The same for the lion. It does what it knows to do.

Humans may be the only animal capable of think beyond its immediate needs. Not only can we think maybe there's a better way to feed myself, we can also think maybe I can help feed others.

We can also do terrible things that animals don't, as far as we know. Would a lion sink its teeth into a gazelle simply to inflict pain? Or for sport? Yet animals do fight amongst themselves, sometimes viciously. That too is part of evolution.

All that we humans do can actually be traced back through evolution. The reasons we do things are due to our evolutionary upbringing. But what we fail to do is recognize when this is no longer a benefit.


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PostPosted: 06/07/13 10:10 am • # 23 
John59 wrote:
Macro - The Lowest Animal By Mark Twain

Thanks for that, Macro. I always enjoy Twain's viewpoint.


.


Mark Twain was afflicted with Major Depressive Disorder and it was debilitating at certain points in his life. I thought his depression leapt off the page in that essay.

Lots of animals eat their young. New leaders of the pride (lions) kill off the offspring of the old leaders. Not all animals (often mammals) value their young.

I talk all the time about hating calls to the Maternity Floor because it is never for any good reason. Drug addicted mothers giving birth to children with Neonatal Abstinence Syndrome or fetal demise. We see horrible things in the news, but I think for the most part people love their children and try to do the best for them.

I am teaching Intro to Sociology in the fall. Reading Chapter 1 of the book tells me, I don't know anything about Sociology. My BA is Psychology and my MSW is Social Work. Sociology is a different animal and truthfully I have never really gotten the big deal about Marxism. I will probably ask our intelligent board members to help me!!!!!!

You've been warned, so be prepared. :happydance


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PostPosted: 06/08/13 9:37 am • # 24 
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kathyk1024 wrote:
John59 wrote:
Macro - The Lowest Animal By Mark Twain

Thanks for that, Macro. I always enjoy Twain's viewpoint.


.


Mark Twain was afflicted with Major Depressive Disorder and it was debilitating at certain points in his life. I thought his depression leapt off the page in that essay.


funny. i only noticed the humor.


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PostPosted: 06/08/13 12:05 pm • # 25 
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kathyk1024 wrote:
Mark Twain was afflicted with Major Depressive Disorder and it was debilitating at certain points in his life. I thought his depression leapt off the page in that essay.


That explains why I've always liked Twain.


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