The "tidbit" far too many are not absorbing is the most telling for me ~ the GOP/TPers claim to be acting [aka "intentionally hurting the public"] out of their deep concern for the debt and the deficit ~ seems to me the GOP/TPers were BIG players in running up that debt/deficit since Congress approves expenses ~ and they are themselves still running up ENORMOUS debt with their 45+ attempts to repeal the ACA [at last count, well over $50M], Issa's compulsion-driven "hearings" to create scandal [where none exists], and their very own government shut-down which is costing an estimated hundreds of millions EACH DAY ~ in addition, Obama has slashed the deficit he inherited by a full 50% ~ so, as far as I am personally concerned, they can take their "deep concern" and shove it where the sun don't shine! ~

Sooz

they can take their "deep concern" and shove it where the sun don't shine!

No can do without causing brain damage.

"Reagan," Vice President Dick Cheney famously declared in 2002, "proved deficits don't matter." Unless, that is, a Democrat is in the White House. After all, while Ronald Reagan tripled the national debt and George W. Bush doubled it again, each Republican was rewarded with a second term in office. But as the Gallup polling data show, concern over the federal deficit hasn't been this high since Democratic budget balancer Bill Clinton was in office. All of which suggest the Republicans' born-again disdain for deficits ranks among the greatest - and most successful - political double-standards in recent memory.

The triumph of the GOP messaging machine is reflected in a new Washington Post/Pew Research poll. In just the four months since the Republican majority took control of the House, the percentage of Americans believing the budget deficit is a major problem which must be addressed now catapulted from 70% to 81%. But even more revealing is an April Gallup survey which showed the deficit (17%) rivaling the unemployment (19%) and the overall state of the economy (26%). And as it turns out, those cyclical swings in budget angst reflect the complete victory of the conservative deficit narrative.

As predicted at the time, Reagan's massive $749 billion supply-side tax cuts in 1981 quickly produced even more massive annual budget deficits. Combined with his rapid increase in defense spending, Reagan delivered not the balanced budgets he promised, but record-settings deficits. Ultimately, Reagan was forced to repeatedly raised taxes to avert financial catastrophe, including the last major bipartisan tax code overhaul in 1986. By the time he left office in 1989, Ronald Reagan nonetheless more than equaled the entire debt burden produced by the previous 200 years of American history. It's no wonder the Gipper cited the skyrocketing deficits he bequeathed to America as perhaps his greatest regret.

Of course, President George H.W. Bush would come to lament them even more. Despite his legendary 1988 campaign pledge of "read my lips - no new taxes," Bush the Elder just two years later was forced to break his promise. As PBS recounted:

This "could mean a one term Presidency," he confided to his diary, "but it's that important for the country."

Bush 41 was right on both counts.

For his part, Bill Clinton faced a double-whammy on the deficit issue. He was, after all, a Democrat. And in 1992 and again in 1996, Clinton was confronted with the third party candidacy -and the pie charts - of Ross Perot. But when President Clinton proposed boosting the top tax rate to 39.6% to help close the yawning Reagan/Bush budget gaps, every single Republican in the House and Senate voted no. While then Rep. John Kasich (R-OH) told Clinton and the Democrats, "your economic program is a job killer," Dick Armey looked into his crystal ball to claim:

"Clearly this is a job killer in the short run. The revenues forecast for this budget will not materialize; the costs of this budget will be greater than what is forecast. The deficit will be worse, and it is not a good omen for the American economy."

Most dramatic of all was Texas Senator Phil Gramm. The same man who led the 1990's crusade to gut regulation of Wall Street and the IRS and later called America a "nation of whiners," boldly - and wrongly - predicted:

"I believe hundreds of thousands of people are going to lose their jobs...I believe Bill Clinton will be one of those people."

As it turned out, not so much. In 1996, Bill Clinton buried Bob Dole. Then in his second term, he buried the budget deficit as well.

Then came George W. Bush, who promised in his 2001 message to Congress:

At the end of those 10 years, we will have paid down all the debt that is available to retire. That is more debt repaid more quickly than has ever been repaid by any nation at any time in history.

Instead, President Bush produced red ink as far as the eye can see. After inheriting a federal budget in the black and CBO forecast of a $5.6 trillion surplus over 10 years, President George W. Bush quickly set about dismantling the progress made under Bill Clinton. Even with two unfunded wars and the similarly unpaid Medicare prescription drug benefit, Bush's $1.4 trillion tax cut in 2001, followed by a $550 billion second round in 2003, accounted for half of the yawning budget deficits he produced. As the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities explained, if made permanent those Bush tax cuts if made permanent, would add more to the national debt over the next decade than the impact of Iraq, Afghanistan, the recession, the stimulus and TARP - combined.

During his presidency, Republicans in Congress voted seven times to raise the debt ceiling, the last to $11.3 trillion. By the time George W. Bush ambled out of the White House, he left his successor a $1.2 trillion budget deficit for 2009.

Barack Obama inherited two wars, a doubled national debt, and that $1.2 trillion deficit from George W. Bush. (As Orrin Hatch described the Bush years, "it was standard practice not to pay for things.") But one thing was new: Republican concern about the budget deficit.

http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/reag ... ont-matter

This pisses me off too, Sooz. What annoys me the most is that they blame Obama and the Democrats for the shutdown.

Here's just one Tea Party supporter comment I responded to elsewhere;



It's like trying to show someone the Earth is not flat.

The problem today is that these people are getting elected because they are getting financial support and instead of following GOP leadership they are essentially threatening them.

This BBC article explains it;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24388669

What does it say when americans have to resort to the BBC to get unbiased commentary on their own politics?

Perhaps it's Sign #13 that America is insane.

(Please don't shoot the foreigner!).

"Insane" is the wrong word.

The US is in the throes of a cognitive dilemma of such proportions that it is incapable, as a society, of coming to terms with it. It reminds me most of all of the Roman Empire as it came crashing down into rubble.
While it cannot give up on its self-image as the "greatest and most powerful country in the world", it is increasingly obvious, even to the genuinely patriotic, that the building is crumbling, and for all the attempts to shore it up even the veneer is starting to crack. It shakes the stick of its immense military power to try and boost its conviction of its own "manifest destiny", but while the stick is very big, the attempt to wield it effectively is being lost every day in a world where sheer military might is no guarantee of success.

Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq epitomise the trauma: how is it possible that the power of the US Empire could be incapable of controlling such small and weak powers? How come the rest of the world no longer sees the US as the "shining light on the hill"? How come the US no longer leads the world in any significant way? How come its economy, the other great source of its power, is in such a mess and even the US Dollar, for decades effectively the "world currency" is losing its sheen?

At the same time, the US aristocracy (like the Roman aristocracy before it) has lost its sense of civic pride and achievement. The sense of noblesse oblige that shaped the behaviour of many of the rich and powerful in earlier generations has virtually vanished as wealth rather than achievement has become the final arbiter of all value. The disparity between the incredible opulence of the super wealthy and the daily struggle of the great majority to simply survive grows greater every day, but it is ignored. It has to be ignored. To look at it too closely is to uncover the fundamental contradiction between the proud self-image of its own greatness and the erosion of the very things that made it great. The people know there is something wrong, but they are confused and anxious and see no way out of it.

In such times the snake oil merchants, the proselytisers, the fanatics, and the ideologues grow fat by feeding on the fears of the many. And every bite they take weakens the social structure even further.

What might come of it? Who knows? But I doubt it will be pleasant.

first of all, i don't think any of these questions are hypothetical. but i am also not nearly so resigned to our fate, nor do i agree that it is inevitable. this is a manufactured condition, and it could be unmanufactured.

this is a manufactured condition, and it could be unmanufactured.

Only if the will to do so is there.
At the moment, it isn't.

Too bad the poor can't manufacture their own food. EBT cards failed to work today in many major cities.

EBT?

I'd like to be as optimistic as you Mac, but I'm not. I'd agree that the situation is "manufactured" but the people who manufactured it in the first place WANT to keep it because it serves what they believe is in their own interests.

They have used "wedge politics" to divide the population, and they constantly pump more bile into the mix. You can point to figures like the Koch brothers, but it is more widespread than that. While-ever the population is so radically divided the real problems can be brushed under the carpet. The real issues, the need for a strong trade union movement, the importance of a decent minimum wage, the slow decay of the economic, social and cultural infrastructure, can be dismissed in the face of such "important" issues as Obamacare or immigration, or the decline of "godliness".

They are happy with their success and too dumb to realise that short-term wins can be the precursors of a crushing defeat, and not one with a good outcome for anyone.

There's no FDR around unfortunately.

i think the will is mostly there. the way is not really there right now, tho.

no, there really isn't. but i don't think we are that far from the breaking point right now, where such things are possible. i know it sounds crazy, but it can totally happen fairly quickly.

consider the runup to the depression. it was far worse in terms of the policies of governance and the failure of Republicans. they had three absolutely miserable presidents before FDR, not just one- and kept winning. and driving us further and further into chaos.

here is the key, tho- we need another Democrat to run and win that is more liberal than Obama.

here is the key, tho- we need another Democrat to run and win that is more liberal than Obama.

And he'd better not be black or Muslim or Hispanic or gay or an activist or... because I think that's what allows the Kochs and their ilk to succeed in their radicalism.

From Wiki:


I didn't know the EBT card was used for benefits other than food stamps until I read the Wiki description ~ the news reported last night that the EBT system crashed yesterday, setting off a panic in 17 states ~ the system was back up and functioning last night ~

Sooz

This is a terrific, and for me important, discussion ~ I mostly agree with Mac, altho I recognize the truth in both CM's and oskar's comments ~ it might seem like the GOP/TPers are "winning" mostly because they are so ... loud and such attention whores ~ but the uproar from the general public over the past 2 weeks forced the Kochs to publicly disclaim supporting the government shut-down or a debt ceiling breach ~ that same uproar also forced the mega GOP/TP donors to close their checkbooks ~ and that same uproar caused GOP/TPers "approval rating" to crash-and-burn in all public polls, ending up with GOPers at something like 28% and TPers at 5% ~

We are in treacherous waters right now, but the recent public reaction gives me great hope ~ I also believe it will take more than Mac's comment of needing "... another Democrat to run and win that is more liberal than Obama" ~ in my view, NO prez can do it by himself ~ also in my view, Obama's biggest mistake in office has been misjudging the depth of GOP/TP knee-jerk hatred, bigotry, and sociopathy ~ the public is finally recognizing that the GOP/TP is a self-imposed disaster right now, by any measure ~

Sooz

Still not enough to overcome the general apathy, IMO.
As for the Kochs and their ilk, they'll simply wait for another day.

i think apathy and the fact that government rarely entertains the interests of the electorate are closely paired.

If you think of things in terms of electoral results then Mac and Sooz have a point, but I think this is more than simply about elections. When the rot of bigotry and animosity eats into the social fabric to such an extent then even a well meaning government isn't enough. The sort of turn around required is, I believe, so significant that even a couple of electoral victories isn't enough. What you are seeing is a cultural disintegration and, in a country where guns are so prevalent, the consequences could be very nasty indeed.

Spot on, CM. It's called civil war and/or anarchy.

Like this? I saw a couple of pics of people carrying the Conferderate Flag. Idiots. Listening to Cruz, the bozo who is and was a part of the problem and Palin the attention whore?




WASHINGTON (CBSDC/AP) — Frustrated veterans and their friends and families gathered at the World War II and Lincoln Memorials on the National Mall, pushing past barriers to protest the memorial’s closing under the government shutdown before turning their attentions to the White House.

Black metal barricades have lined the front of the memorial since the government closed Oct. 1. That’s when more than 300 National Park Service workers who staff and maintain the National Mall were furloughed.

Some protesters carried the barricades, that look like bicycle racks, more than a mile to the White House and stacked them up outside the gates, confronting police in riot gear. Some protesters carried signs reading “Impeach Obama.”
Police moved the protesters back to set up barricades between the crowd and the White House gate. Some demonstrators chanted “shame on you” at the officers. Others chanted “You work for us,” according to All-News 99.1 reporter Heather Curtis.

Many of the frustrated contingent blame President Barack Obama for the closure of the memorials.

“Many in our group have decided that enough is enough. We are Americans. We are proud of our heritage and our service… We will not stand by and let the U.S. government dishonor the legacy of sacrifice of the generations before us,” according to a statement on the group’s website.

Republican Sens. Ted Cruz of Texas and Mike Lee of Utah, along with former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, were part of the demonstrators on the National Mall.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/10/ ... memorials/

Everyone who breached the closed memorials should be arrested and charged with trespass ~ Cruz, Palin, and members of Congress who led/joined the breach should be arrested and charged with trespass AND sedition ~ NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

Sooz

Gummint's too wimpy to do it and they know it,

Republican Sen. Mike Lee of Utah and Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas were among those who gathered Sunday morning, along with former Alaska governor Sarah Palin, according to WTOP radio. Cruz said President Obama is using veterans as pawns in the shutdown.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/10/13/cruz-palin-crowd-wwii-memorial/2975853/

Cruz and his friends forced the shutdown. He uses an occasion at a WWII memorial to criticize the president. But it's Obama who is using veterans as pawns.

This is getting crazier by the hour.