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PostPosted: 11/25/13 3:26 pm • # 1 
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This highlights some things I either didn't know or have forgotten about the lies of past Presidents. It's a very long article, so I will post a few snippets. It's a good read if you have the time.

Of course presidents lie

That's the signature line from a classic American story. When the nation's first president was asked as a boy if he had chopped down his father's cherry tree, he didn't say "I can neither confirm nor deny those reports," or "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

George Washington told the truth even if it got him in trouble. The moral of the story -- Washington was a great leader because he would not lie, and all presidents should be as honest as our founding father.

Well, guess what? That story about Washington and the cherry tree is a lie. Never happened. And the notion that a good president doesn't lie to the American people -- that's an illusion as well. Historians say many of our greatest presidents were the biggest liars -- and duplicity was part of their greatness.

"Every president has not only lied at some time, but needs to lie to be effective," says Ed Uravic, a former Washington lobbyist, congressional chief of staff and author of "Lying Cheating Scum."

Presidential lying is a hot topic because of a promise made by President Obama. While promoting Obamacare, Obama told Americans that they could keep their health insurance if they wanted to. That turned out to not be true for some, and Obama has been accused of lying.

You might say lying is the verbal lubricant that keeps the Oval Office engine running.
..............
While preparing the country for World War II, Franklin Roosevelt told Americans in 1940 that "your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars."

President John F. Kennedy declared in 1961 that "I have previously stated, and I repeat now, that the United States plans no military intervention in Cuba." All the while, he was planning an invasion of Cuba.

Ronald Reagan told Americans in 1986, "We did not, I repeat, did not trade weapons or anything else [to Iran] for hostages, nor will we," four months before admitting that the U.S. had actually done what he had denied.
................
Presidential lies fall into two categories: forgivable vs. unforgiveable.

Forgivable lies are those meant to keep the nation from harm. Some consider the National Security Agency's lies about the scope of domestic spying to be in this category because they protect us from terrorists, says Uravic, author of "Lying, Cheating Scum."

Unforgivable lies fall into the Nixonian "I am not a crook" category, Uravic says.

Those are lies meant to cover up crimes, incompetence or protect a president's political future. President Lyndon Johnson, for example, kept the full cost of spending on the Vietnam War from Congress and the public to preserve his political power, Uravic says.

"The American people remain forgiving of their politicians, as long as those politicians put the people first and deliver tangible benefits for all of us," says Uravic, who also teaches at the Harrisburg University of Science and Technology in Pennsylvania.
.............
That distinction is why Bill Clinton remains popular, and George W. Bush remains reviled for his "lie," says Allan Cooper, a political scientist and historian at Otterbein University in Ohio.

In a nationally televised address in 2003, Bush said that invading Iraq was necessary "to eliminate weapons of mass destruction."
..........
President James Polk lied to Congress in 1846 -- claiming Mexico had invaded the United States -- because he was determined to take the Southwest from Mexico. That lie led to the Mexican-American War, Contosta says.

President William McKinley lied to the American public in 1898 when he insisted that Spain had blown up the USS Maine warship in Havana Harbor, Cuba, although he had no evidence. That lie led to the Spanish-American war.
One popular president got caught telling a lie about a failed military action but his popularity remains intact.

"President Dwight Eisenhower denied that the United States was flying U-2 spy planes over the Soviet Union, until the Soviets shot down one of the planes, capturing the pilot, and he was forced to admit the truth," Contosta says.
.........
If you still think you want a leader who is always honest, consider the fate of one recent president.

He vowed during his presidential campaign that "I will never tell a lie to the American people." He wore a sweater during a nationally televised speech from the Oval Office because he had turned down the White House thermostat to conserve energy. He brought peace to the Middle East and even taught Sunday school.

He was also swept out of the Oval Office after one term.

"The country fell apart," Mott says of this president's time in office. "He was too noble, too pure. He didn't know how to play people against one another. He should have read his Machiavelli."

That president was Jimmy Carter. He won the Nobel Peace Prize after leaving office, and he's been widely praised for his humanitarian efforts around the globe. He still builds homes for the poor around the world.

No one ever labeled Carter a liar while he was in office.

But then hardly anyone calls him a great president today.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/24/politics/ ... Stories%29


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PostPosted: 11/25/13 3:45 pm • # 2 
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Machiavelli! One of the greatest (and most misunderstood) political thinkers.

"I have never said what I believe or believed what I said," he wrote near the end of his life. "If indeed I do sometimes tell the truth, I hide it behind so many lies that it is hard to find."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... velli.html

But that, of course, is just another lie ;)


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 12:34 am • # 3 
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Cattleman wrote:
Machiavelli! One of the greatest (and most misunderstood) political thinkers.

"I have never said what I believe or believed what I said," he wrote near the end of his life. "If indeed I do sometimes tell the truth, I hide it behind so many lies that it is hard to find."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... velli.html

But that, of course, is just another lie ;)


ah, the good old "liars paradox".


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 4:36 am • # 4 
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Close anyway ....


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 8:40 am • # 5 
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Truth is overrated. And a lie has to be deliberate, meaning that you must know the truth in order to lie about it. It burns me up when people are accused of lying when in fact, they are simply wrong.

Lying can be essential to our national security and to our personal security and safety.

If you say you hate lying and you never do it, you probably are.


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 12:04 pm • # 6 
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I've been thinking about this thread since roseanne posted it ~ I agree with queenie that "And a lie has to be deliberate, meaning that you must know the truth in order to lie about it." and that "Lying can be essential to our national security and to our personal security and safety." ~ but I disagree that "Truth is overrated." ~ to me, truth is the basis for trust, not only from politicians but in our personal relationships as well ~

I have always tried and still do try to not be in a position that would "require" me to lie ~ for instance, when my [former] boss was managing partner firm-wide, I often knew things before those things were made public ~ I mastered the "art" of "playing dumb" ~ some might see that as a "lie by omission", but I saw it as fulfilling my responsibilities ~

Sometimes the truth hurts, to hear OR to say ~ but not knowing or hearing the truth is equally hurtful and can be dangerous as well ~

Also, there's only so much a/my brain can retain at any given moment ~ so it's much easier and less work for me to not lie, which would require me to remember what I said to who ~ :b

I have a companion question ~ if, according to queenie, a lie must be in direct opposition to something you know, what about when some simply say what they say because the do not believe the truth or intentionally manipulate the truth by "forgetting" pertinent facts?

Sooz


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 2:35 pm • # 7 
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Quote:
I have a companion question ~ if, according to queenie, a lie must be in direct opposition to something you know, what about when some simply say what they say because the do not believe the truth or intentionally manipulate the truth by "forgetting" pertinent facts?


In that case you should be expecting a call from Roger Ailes to join the team anytime soon.


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 2:58 pm • # 8 
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I was thinking what Jab said.

Intentionally manipulating the truth is lying- can you "really" manipulate truth?????


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 3:37 pm • # 9 
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queenoftheuniverse wrote:
I was thinking what Jab said.

Intentionally manipulating the truth is lying- can you "really" manipulate truth?????


What is the "truth"? I think we are confusing facts with truths.


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 4:01 pm • # 10 
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Facts are true aren't they? Otherwise they aren't "facts".

I think the confusion here comes from the distinction between "lying", which is a form of human behaviour the same as "telling the truth". Both are about the relationship between what we believe and what we say.

That's quite distinct from "truth" when its antonym is "false" which is about reality.

The confusion comes because we use the word "truth" in both senses.

Truth is truth whether we believe it or not.


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 7:35 pm • # 11 
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Cattleman wrote:
Facts are true aren't they? Otherwise they aren't "facts".

I think the confusion here comes from the distinction between "lying", which is a form of human behaviour the same as "telling the truth". Both are about the relationship between what we believe and what we say.

That's quite distinct from "truth" when its antonym is "false" which is about reality.

The confusion comes because we use the word "truth" in both senses.

Truth is truth whether we believe it or not.


That's what I was trying to say. Facts are facts. Truth is subjective.


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 8:50 pm • # 12 
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Is there a difference between lying and telling a falsehood. I would say there is because, to my mind, "lying" requires some fore knowledge of the truth before making a false statement. Telling a falsehood does not require that fore knowledge. In fact, someone telling a falsehood may well think they are telling the truth when they make the statement.

For example, Bush told the American people that Iraq had WMD's. I maintain that he wasn't lying because he believed it when he said it. It later turned out that was untrue. He had told a falsehood but he hadn't lied.

The same thing with Obama. He told people they could keep their existing plans. It turned out that wasn't true at least how it was perceived. Again, he wasn't lying. He simply told a falsehood because what was untrue didn't become visible until later.

It's a pretty thin line between the two and one that people can take advantage of to advance their own agendas. Hence, many on the left called Bush a liar and now the right is returning the favor over Obama's gaffe.


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 9:23 pm • # 13 
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That's what I was trying to say. Facts are facts. Truth is subjective.

Are you trying to send me into a rage???? Luckily my blood pressure is low at the moment so it won't blow my brains out!

TRUTH IS NOT SUBJECTIVE!!!!!!!!
I take any suggestion that I would say its "subjective" as a gross personal insult!


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PostPosted: 11/26/13 9:35 pm • # 14 
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Jimwilliam I think both sooz and I agreed you must know thst you are deliberately lying for it to be a lie, but I fully believe Bush was lying and did in fact know that there were no WMD in Iraq


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