Interesting observation and question, gramps ~

In my own mind, the "in loco parentis doctrine" is most appropriate for younger primary grades, when we expect teachers to keep kidlets safe during school hours ~ I am not suggesting that student safety should ever be neglected or that teachers ever stop "acting in the kids' best interests", but it becomes less a focus as the kidlets become more competent in knowing "right" from "wrong" and "safe" from "dangerous" ~ as the students advance and grow, I believe the role of good teachers' morphs into focusing directly on helping the kidlets develop more skills, definitely including inquisitiveness and critical thinking skills ~

I also believe that reciting the pledge of allegiance is a throw-back to an earlier time and an earlier mindset that kidlets should do as told, without thinking/arguing ~ and IS to a certain extent "indoctrination" as oskar says above ~ the kidlets are all individuals, with differing traditions, ideas, and beliefs, and we must recognize and respect that ~ we lose too many important [possibly life-altering] "teaching moments" by insisting on lock-step behavior in all things ~

Sooz

yeah. still not getting it. but i am pretty dense.

Or poorly expressed on my part.
I meant that what your Constitution says and what your country and its politicians do are often at loggerheads.

thanks, that helped. i agree. and it is funny that the party of "strict constitutionalists" is generally on the WRONG side of this issue.

I find this conversation very weird. Saying the Pledge Allegiance is the law of the land in all but five states; Vermont, Oklahoma, Hawaii, Iowa and Wyoming(mixture of red and blue).

I don't see it having much to do with religion or jingoism as students have the right to participate or not participate of their own choosing. Kids have their freedom. They can be Sikhs or Sunnis or Atheists or Agnostics or Jews or Catholics or Protestants or Hindus or Satanists or the biggest percentage of all Americans the I don't knows.

If it's "the law of the land" in all but 5 states how can one have a choice in the other 45 states?

Here is New Jersey's law on the subject. It discusses choice to say the pledge or not.

http://law.onecle.com/new-jersey/18a-ed ... /36-3.html

Here's California's Code. It's not as tightly written as New Jersey's.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/EDC/ ... 1/2/s52720

Choice of what, btw, oskar?

So, does a nation need its kids to have
patriotism training or not?

Did you read your own post?

Oskar - Yes. What is your point? Schools have to do it. Kids don't.

Gramps - I don't know. I went through it. I am not wildly patriotic.

I don't think I am either. But I love this place, this homeland. My earlier question was partly wondering how I came to love it.

You love it because its part of you Gramps - part of who and what you are. At least, that's how I feel.

The only real problem with patriotism is that it frequently gets mixed up with jingoism.

students have the right to participate or not participate of their own choosing

I sat down during the pledge in kindergarten-we used to race to see who could sit first, just kid stuff- and the teacher screamed at me, made me take a time out in the coat closet ( walk in, lol) and kept me after school. I was so upset and sobbing so hard when I got home my mom drove me back to school to find out what on earth had happened.

It may be a "choice" legally, but few kids I know of will risk it.

I agree with both of these quotes ~ I've learned that every nation has its own warts ~ I definitely don't agree or approve of several government decisions/actions here, just as I'm sure other nationalities feel the same about their homes ~ but the US, with all its warts, is and will always be my home ~

Sooz

I remember saying the 23rd Psalm as part of our morning ritual when I was in kindergarten. I was so young then. I turned five on October 24 so I entered kindergarten at age 4.

I think the primary difference between those of us who love the US with all its warts and want it to always be our home and the far right is we are able to admit the warts and love it anyway.

Its simpler than that for me. Its because I love my country that I want to get rid of the warts.

When I look at the US it makes me sad. What an incredible country! What an amazing place it could have been!

But I'm even sadder when I look at my own country.