Jim, I know damn well I'm not omnipotent because my feet hurt.

Nor do I think I'm the centre of the universe, and never did. Nor have I ever thought that I controlled the universe. Of course there are "powers" that are greater than me - lots of them, but you seem to mean something very different when you use that phrase than I do. At least that's what it seems to me. Your "higher power" is something external and ethereal that people can somehow draw on for support. You've never been able to explain it except in mystical terms.

Of course I didn't give up drinking just through my own efforts. Without the support of my wife in particular and my family and friends in general I'd probably be dead by now. Powers? Certainly! But they are the mundane old empathetic powers of ordinary people, there's nothing "higher" about them.

And guess what, I'm not miserable or unhappy at all. In fact right at the moment my base feeling is happiness. I've got plenty of regrets and life throws up its normal uppers and downers but overall I feel pretty damn good.

So, guess what. I don't fit into your stereotype of the "alcoholic" and I suspect there's a hell of a lot more people like me.

While I might feel pretty good about myself for having beaten it, I don't have the overwhelming arrogance to assume that the way I did it is the only way or that everyone else is just like me.

You remind me of the fundamentalists I have run across who try to talk me out of my atheism. They pretty much use the same phraseology as well.

All you had to be willing to say is that "Yes, there is a religious component to AA, but you don't have to be particularly religious for it to help you". That's what all your posts point to.

But even that minor concession was too much wasn't it.

Whatever, Cattleman. You go ahead and believe what you want to believe about me and about AA. Nobody really gives a shit. Millions of people are coming to AA and succeeding....usually after they've tried your way a number of times and failed.

What Carrot? They made it a condition of his parole.

Despite his objections, Hazle remained in the religious 12-step program, all while unsuccessfully trying to get transferred to a secular program. A little over a month after he entered the program, however, the program complained that Hazle was “sort of passive aggressive.” Hazle was charged with a parole violation, arrested, and incarcerated for another 100 days.

Good on them Jim and good on AA. In my view its a very effective program which has helped a great number of people. What's your objection to that? It wouldn't suit me because I'm an atheist, but it clearly suits others.

What exactly is "my way" Jim? And where did I suggest its the right way for anyone else?

And, above all why are you so damned defensive?

Exactly Chaos!

I suspect the proper translation of "sort of passive aggressive" is "wouldn't go along with the mumbo jumbo".

That's where we differ, jim ~ what you're describing is "tough love", telling it like it is ~ that is exactly what some [maybe many] need to hear and to understand ~ my friend believes that someone always being available when he needs to talk is an undeniable emotional support ~ and he always "pays it forward" when someone turns to him for that support ~

What you seem to be dismissing is that different folks have different psyches ~ what works for one [or even thousands] will NOT work for everyone ~ YOUR belief set is YOUR belief set ~ maybe many will adopt it as their own, but then again maybe no one else will ~ that's life ~

Sooz

Chaos -the condition for parole was 90 day inpatient rehab. Not AA. (This AA conversation has become a monster.) We don't know the details of Empires program. Most of the reason for the 90 day inpatient program is that meth works differently on the brain than some of the other drugs and they wanted him in a controlled environment longer.

Paroled prisoners are still prisoners. If this program was too offensive for him, he should have said so from the get go and stayed in jail and saved the tax payers $2m that would have been better used to hire personnel and put CBT programs in place at the facilities with state contracts.

I hope that California learned something from this. Hopefully, Hazle stays clean and does some good with his money.

(This AA conversation has become a monster.)

You're right. Apparently everybody here knows so much more about AA than I do so I'm bowing out. When you, your friends or family are desperate after failing so often by following your ideologically driven ways, have them contact me and I will direct them to somewhere that works.

Well, sometimes side issues take over Kath.

But maybe that will change now he's is taking his bat and ball and gone home.

Still, there's a certain irony in someone talking about other people's "ideological driven ways" when he has displayed a total inability to even consider what other people have actually said and flailed around at every windmill in sight rather than address the real issues. For example, if you read the thread no one actually claimed or implied they knew more about AA than he did. The issue was whether or not one of his claims about AA actually stood up to scrutiny. It didn't.

I guess I can understand it though. The existence of people like me, who don't fit into his neat model of "the alcoholic" is an incredible threat. I think that's why I get the distinct impression he wants me to fail.

We don't know the details of the Empires program Kath, but no one involved in the case ever even suggested that it wasn't religious.

And, after all, that is the key issue.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Athe ... 822767.php


The settlement provides $1 million from the state and $925,000 from WestCare. The Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation said Tuesday it “does not require a 12-step program as a condition of parole.” An attorney for WestCare declined to comment.

Hazle, a computer network administrator, initially pleaded guilty to drug possession in 2004, was placed on probation, and then was ordered to prison in 2006 for violating probation by continuing to use methamphetamine.
After his release a year later, he said, he told parole officials of his atheism and was assured he wouldn’t be sent to a religiously based treatment program. But the leaders at Empire Recovery Center in Redding, where WestCare referred him, told participants they could recover only by submitting to God, Hazle said — “if we don’t find God, we’re doomed to repeat till we die.”

That might work for some people, Hazle said, but the way he sees it, “I have to become powerful to overcome problems in my life. ... A higher power, to me, is a fiction.”

I read somewhere some time ago that virtually all 12-step programs are patterned after AA because of its long-term success rate ~ and Hazle's comment in Chaos' above post about participants being told "... they could recover only by submitting to God ..." are almost verbatim what my friend ran into in so many AA groups before finding the group he still attends ~

Sooz

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/155157/daddys-very-sick


I had to.