grumpyauntjeanne wrote:
green apple tree wrote:
You know, one of the ongoing problems with this site (as much as i love it and the people in it) is that we all have similar views on certain issues, which causes two things. ONe, it's hard to have a good discussion when all anyone has to say is "yes, i agree, thumbs up", and two , anyone coming in with a different view tends to get piled on and quit.
I don't agree with Jim on feminist issues. But I will defend his right to (politely and appropriately) express them, as well as everyone else. This discussion is coming dangerously close to a kind of social censorship. I want Jim to feel welcome to express his views and the reasons behind them, so that I can understand them better. For one reason, he's not alone in those views, and I want to understand why bright educated men sometimes fall into this camp.
My opinion,anyway.
I would agree with you. The problem is the discussion has happened before and jim played Rush Limbaugh calling any women who thought perhaps men should be taught not to rape feminazis and such. He did the same kind of thing this time. Was he trying to censor sooz when he insulted her? My first post was rather benign. The second one gave him as much respect for his views as he was giving to those of us who disagree wth him. Are we supposed to draw straws on who gets to post to him on feminist issues so it doesn't appear to be piling on? I would love for hm to actually explain his views instead of parroting right wing bs on feminism. Does he even acknowledge that rape is a problem and domestic abuse against women is a problem? Most of the women he has insulted in this group have acknowledged that abuse against men is also wrong.
BTW, I sometimes have views on here that go against the crowd. t does make for more interesting discussion, but only if both sides actually respond to points made by the other side.
That's my opinion.
Thanks for your comments Greenie. I actually enjoy a good argument so I don't feel particularly intimidated. After 40 years in my job, it's pretty hard for anyone to intimidate me.
Jeanne's and a few other's comments in here are typical of the kind of thing people receive whenever they question the women as victims industry. No where in here have I said I approve of the revenge porn sites. Nowhere have I said I want to possess women. Nowhere have I said I don't like strong women or approve of beating or raping women. And yet that's is what I have been accused of throughout this thread. It's even been intimated here that I must have been guilty of beating women at some point while in the other thread Queenie even suggested I must be a rapist.
Well, despite the best obfuscation efforts of those of you in the industry, none of that is true. I'm not a rapist. I've never lifted my hand to a woman - although I have been attacked several times by women, twice with knives - and I do like strong, intelligent women and enjoy seeing them succeed.
What I am opposed to is this industry that laughably purports to speak for women but owes its very existence on ensuring women remain victims and they do it:
1. By continuously pounding the idea into the heads of women that they aren't good enough and by insisting that "men" have to change without ever really saying exactly what "men" are supposed to do to bring about that change. Individual men - those who beat their wives, rapists, bosses who refuse to promote women - know what they have to do but the rest, who don't do those things, are left confused, feeling vaguely guilty of something though not sure of what, and unsure of what is expected of them.
In some cases, like myself and many other men, we are starting to just get pissed off at these baseless accusations. Of course the industry doubles down on this simply by raising the level of accusation.
2. By insisting women have no role in what happens to them. It's always up to men to do everything. Apart from being highly insulting to the capabilities of women it's an impossible goal which, of course, is the whole self-perpetuating point of the industry. This denial is also dangerous to women. Take this slut walk thing that happens, for example. It got it's start because some Toronto police sergeant made the common sense comment that women should be careful about how they dress because there are rapists out there. Well, the industry went bat shit, not to mention seeing an new opportunity to fill the old coffers. They attacked the cop like you wouldn't believe and then went about organizing these walks which, if the women take the message to heart and dress skimpily in certain circumstances, will put them in danger. Of course putting women in danger is the whole point of the industry. If there weren't danger, there would be no money. Does that mean I think women are to blame for getting raped. No, not at all. They
should be able to dress anyway they want. However they
"can't", not because "men" are rapists but because there are men who are rapists out there.
By a similar token, only a small minority of men physically abuse women but, to listen to the industry, you would think we all wander around with clubs and dragging our females back to the cave by their hair. What's more, they vehemently deny that women could have any role in what happens to them despite the fact that study after study shows that, statistically, women are far more violent than men in their relationships than men. Most of the time they aren't capable of inflicting the kind of damage men can but that doesn't mean they can't hurt them. Again, some men are just plain assholes and would beat their women regardless of anything else. But what about those women who attack their men and he retaliates (and no, before you get your long knives out, I did not retaliate when the women attacked me). Watch what happens when some hapless fool suggests women not hit their men or, as we see in Jeanne's industry apologia post 26, someone suggests that maybe some money and resources be devoted to men who may be subject to spousal abuse.
Women have made huge strides forward over the past hundred years and especially the past fifty years. The rest of the way to equality can be accomplished but it is going to take honesty and the effort of both sexes. Continuing to allow a batch of money hungry, lying crusaders to carry the torch is just going to perpetuate and probably exacerbate the problems.