This is the second time that I know of that this same ridiculous argument has been waged in this group. It starts with jim's false assertion that all men are being blamed. Absolutely absurd. In both cases, the authors make it very clear which men they are talking about. So, I have to assume that jim bases all his thoughts on the titles of the articles, rather than taking time to read the artcle for clarification. But, then why would he read the article when it is obviously women blaming men for something. It's ok for him to insult any woman (or man) who agrees with the article's point even though he has not even taken the time to understand the point. We are all being brainwashed. It couldn't possibly be that we have seen it all or experienced it all and realize the author's points on our own. Rather than discuss a very real, very serious problem, a man gets his little feelings hurt and whines. Rather than being inclusive and making shelters for men, too, he prefers to take shelters away from women. Sorry, 30 women who need it have to leave this shelter because this guy needs it. And then, jim asks women why the men have no shelter. How about asking that of the men who control the govt and the tax money. No, no, it couldn't be men's fault, it has to be those damned feminists. They don't want to help abused men.

Women's rights have come a long way. However, there are still a lot of the old bs things that need to be changed. Here come some generalizations. Men have more money than women. Men are therefore more easily elected than women. Therefore, men still have most of the power to fix laws and problems in society. Women are still expected to be the primary care givers for the children so are less apt to have the same experiences as the men and can not compete equally for jobs. Even when women do get equal jobs chances are they will be paid less. They are punished for being the child bearers and having to take the time required for that. Men have more testosterone than women and testosterone has a relation to aggressiveness. Men are more prone to physical violence than women. Men are physically stronger than women. So, men have control and don't want to give it up. Women have the children to care for. Women are less apt to have jobs where they can support both themselves and their children. There's a far greater chance that the physical injury to women committed by men is worse than the other way around. It is certainly more frequent. So, because of all of this, more women need help than men in abusive situations. Why do women keep talking about it? Because men keep ignoring it. There are the guys who think the women could have prevented it if they had stayed in line. There are the guys that say excuse me if women are equals then they can take care of themselves. There are the guys that say, tough shit women, some of you abuse guys so let's call it even and shut the fuck up.

Women had to fight hard and continue to have to fight hard for the advances made and for the help needed because of society's archaic views. They won't stand in the way of men getting the help they need, too. The few, much fewer, men who get abused are disabled by the same warped strereotypes that women are fighting against. More men have the power, more men commit the crimes (even those against men). Yeah, we will continue to write these articles, agree with these articles, speak out about the problems. How dare we feminists expect fairness and equality. How dare we expect laws to help correct the injustices from the past and present. How dare we expect men to understand that things need to change.

Excuse me for thinking that an abused woman with children and no job deserves help. I feel the same about any abused person. I do not, however, feel the same about guys who think their feelings are more important than the issue of abuse against women.

jim, I say one more time, that this idiocy is not like the you that I am used to. I have to assume there is something that happened along the way that makes for this rabidly anti feminist bs and the attack against anyone agreeing with the articles. It's not a healthy thing you know? Disagreeing is one thing, this hatred is just not rational.

grumpyauntjeanne wrote:

This is the second time that I know of that this same ridiculous argument has been waged in this group. It starts with jim's false assertion that all men are being blamed. Absolutely absurd. In both cases, the authors make it very clear which men they are talking about. So, I have to assume that jim bases all his thoughts on the titles of the articles, rather than taking time to read the artcle for clarification. But, then why would he read the article when it is obviously women blaming men for something. It's ok for him to insult any woman (or man) who agrees with the article's point even though he has not even taken the time to understand the point. We are all being brainwashed. It couldn't possibly be that we have seen it all or experienced it all and realize the author's points on our own. Rather than discuss a very real, very serious problem, a man gets his little feelings hurt and whines. Rather than being inclusive and making shelters for men, too, he prefers to take shelters away from women. Sorry, 30 women who need it have to leave this shelter because this guy needs it. And then, jim asks women why the men have no shelter. How about asking that of the men who control the govt and the tax money. No, no, it couldn't be men's fault, it has to be those damned feminists. They don't want to help abused men.

Women's rights have come a long way. However, there are still a lot of the old bs things that need to be changed. Here come some generalizations. Men have more money than women. Men are therefore more easily elected than women. Therefore, men still have most of the power to fix laws and problems in society. Women are still expected to be the primary care givers for the children so are less apt to have the same experiences as the men and can not compete equally for jobs. Even when women do get equal jobs chances are they will be paid less. They are punished for being the child bearers and having to take the time required for that. Men have more testosterone than women and testosterone has a relation to aggressiveness. Men are more prone to physical violence than women. Men are physically stronger than women. So, men have control and don't want to give it up. Women have the children to care for. Women are less apt to have jobs where they can support both themselves and their children. There's a far greater chance that the physical injury to women committed by men is worse than the other way around. It is certainly more frequent. So, because of all of this, more women need help than men in abusive situations. Why do women keep talking about it? Because men keep ignoring it. There are the guys who think the women could have prevented it if they had stayed in line. There are the guys that say excuse me if women are equals then they can take care of themselves. There are the guys that say, tough shit women, some of you abuse guys so let's call it even and shut the fuck up.

Women had to fight hard and continue to have to fight hard for the advances made and for the help needed because of society's archaic views. They won't stand in the way of men getting the help they need, too. The few, much fewer, men who get abused are disabled by the same warped strereotypes that women are fighting against. More men have the power, more men commit the crimes (even those against men). Yeah, we will continue to write these articles, agree with these articles, speak out about the problems. How dare we feminists expect fairness and equality. How dare we expect laws to help correct the injustices from the past and present. How dare we expect men to understand that things need to change.

Excuse me for thinking that an abused woman with children and no job deserves help. I feel the same about any abused person. I do not, however, feel the same about guys who think their feelings are more important than the issue of abuse against women.

jim, I say one more time, that this idiocy is not like the you that I am used to. I have to assume there is something that happened along the way that makes for this rabidly anti feminist bs and the attack against anyone agreeing with the articles. It's not a healthy thing you know? Disagreeing is one thing, this hatred is just not rational.

Thank you, Jeanne. I couldn't have proved my case any better.

Ha, jim. Such a low opinion of strong women and such a high opinion of whiney men. I think you have proven my point. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt because I liked you based on other threads. I won't make that mistake again. Enjoy your misery.

Jim, if Grumpy gets too abusive, let me know and I clear out my guest room for you.

You know, one of the ongoing problems with this site (as much as i love it and the people in it) is that we all have similar views on certain issues, which causes two things. ONe, it's hard to have a good discussion when all anyone has to say is "yes, i agree, thumbs up", and two , anyone coming in with a different view tends to get piled on and quit.

I don't agree with Jim on feminist issues. But I will defend his right to (politely and appropriately) express them, as well as everyone else. This discussion is coming dangerously close to a kind of social censorship. I want Jim to feel welcome to express his views and the reasons behind them, so that I can understand them better. For one reason, he's not alone in those views, and I want to understand why bright educated men sometimes fall into this camp.

My opinion,anyway.

I have talked about that numerous times, greenie. I even felt that way about FM.

From today's ER. I was called to the ER to talk to a victim of domestic assault.

!9 yo woman with her aunt. She's filed a police report. She and her boyfriend got into a fight and he struck her. The victim seemed disinterested in discussing the cycle of abuse or my telling her that in accordance to pattern he will be back hat in hand, very apologetic stating he loves her and it will never happen again. She's too busy texting.

I gave her the numbers for the Atlantic County Women's Center if she needs their help.

I figure they will be back together by midnight.

Let me preface this by saying I have a humdinger of a cold and feel like 10 pounds of crap stuffed into a 5 pound bag ~

We don't censor anybody in VoC ~ people can say/post whatever is on her/his mind ~ that does not mean that no one will argue against posted opinions/positions ~ nor does it mean that we must or should avoid certain topics ~

We each have two choices when we come across a post we personally [for whatever reason] find offensive: we can respond or we can ignore ~ we each make that decision our ourselves ~

Sooz

I don't even understand this thread actually. I can't believe anyone is pro revenge pornographic websites. I also don't like the topic article. I don't think the website is predicated on men thinking they possess their significant others. I think that is totally gender neutral. I've heard a lot of Don't touch my man and two girls fighting over some guy!!!!!

I think men and women hook up in clubs and a lot of times the guys are too drunk to say no, too. They are not going to consider that rape. If however the woman gets pregnant and has the child, he's got an 18 year plus college bill. Both genders can be stupid, but it's a reality.

There is real domestic abuse. I had a case in the hospital this weekend. I couldn't even determine who was the abused and the abuser. She, age 65, says he hits her. She maced her 81 yo husband who is hospitalized with pneumonia. They will have to figure that out in the rehab facility.

The bottom line is that those sites are sickening.
I'd say the same about a "women's rights" site with the same sort of content.

The rest of the storm in a teacup discussion here is kind of irrelevant.

Kathy, you don't think more men think women are their possessions? I'm not talking about the kids in your classes. Do you also not think most domestic abuse is committed by men against women? Do you think it is all gender neutral? Men don't have more of a power thing than women?

I don't feel that way about FM. But, if he had stayed here I would have coped. FM wasn't banned until he started deleting all his own files on his way to yet another dramatic exit, and it was his decision, if I remember correctly.

I would agree with you. The problem is the discussion has happened before and jim played Rush Limbaugh calling any women who thought perhaps men should be taught not to rape feminazis and such. He did the same kind of thing this time. Was he trying to censor sooz when he insulted her? My first post was rather benign. The second one gave him as much respect for his views as he was giving to those of us who disagree wth him. Are we supposed to draw straws on who gets to post to him on feminist issues so it doesn't appear to be piling on? I would love for hm to actually explain his views instead of parroting right wing bs on feminism. Does he even acknowledge that rape is a problem and domestic abuse against women is a problem? Most of the women he has insulted in this group have acknowledged that abuse against men is also wrong.

BTW, I sometimes have views on here that go against the crowd. t does make for more interesting discussion, but only if both sides actually respond to points made by the other side.

That's my opinion.

I think more men physically and sexually abuse women than vice versa. Kids in classes are men and women in training btw.

I think women use a less physically violent "mean girls" tactic with men and other women.

I think the mass media objectifies women more than men, and we (meaning women) are complicit. I think internet porn viewing since preteen ages is harmful, too.

Thanks for answering, Kathy

Yes, I know kids in the classes are men and women in training. That's why I wasn't talking aout them. Not sure why you thought you had to tell me that.

Women have tons of games they play, that's very true. Some of their games are very emotionally abusive to guys. The difference is guys generally don't need shelters to help them out after them like many physically abused women do.

I agree about the media and that women are complicit. Old stereotypes are being perpetuated and it makes it more dfficult for women and men who want to break away from those.

Discussions like this have a tendency to divide people. That's why the right-wing likes to exploit these "hot-button" issues. The right in Canada is somewhat monolithic while the left bickers among themselves over ethical dilemmas that have no answers that everyone can live with. So while the left make up 60% of the electorate, they're so divided among themselves, the Conservative right wins. Personally, I try to avoid these discussions because I know there's nothing I'm going to say that will meet the approval of everyone in the room. Because it's such an emotional issue - abuse - disagreements can and do come from some very visceral places.

Yeah, but isnt the whole point of a discussion board to DISCUSS things?

sid and jeanne - I think this is why the men in my classes told me that these discussions perpetuate stereotypes. This happened independently in two different classes and I think their reaction was very much like jim's. I think there is a demonization of the gender element that some men take personally and find totally distasteful. I think they know there is domestic violence and find it reprehensible. However, they don't find all women as oppressed and as victims. I don't like the image of women as victims either. I want women to be empowered without demeaning men.

Exactly right, greenie. That's why jim's insults to anyone who agrees with the articles irritates people. He gives no real reasoning. He just hates feminists. That's not discussion. And as chaos pointed out, he says he's pissed at generalzations and then uses them to attack feminists. I, too, would love to understand why he and others feel that way. After 2 "dscussions" on it with jim, I accept we will never find out from him.

jim - I'm not all that irritated, but do you hate feminists? Can you explain your views on this subject?

Thanks....

good grief, people. kathy, where has anyone said all women are victims? You won't find it just as you won't find anywhere that people said all me are abusers and rapists. No one is demonizing all men. Rapists and abusers demonize themselves. Not all women are victims. The ones who have been raped and beaten are. The ones who get lesser pay for the same work are. On and on and on. This is like people who argue against affrmative action because they never owned slaves. How are men being demeaned by a discussion of rape and abuse? "Men" are being demeaned by those few among them that rape and abuse. You think they know there is domestc abuse and it is reprehensible? You need to be sure they know it. That's the issue. They have to know. We all have to know. It will never get better if we don't. It won't get better for the women and it won't get better for the men. Men and women, all men and women need to work to stop the abuse against anyone and everyone. Assuming we are intellgent people, we need to get off this bs about all this and all that and address the real issue. One abused person is one too many. One abuser is one too many. We need to get out of our self absorption and direct the energy at the problems.

Kathy, how do you handle the issue when the young men bring it up?

I want women to be empowered without demeaning men.

Bingo!

That isn't the issue in class. Stratification by gender chapter is that women are an oppressed majority. The men in the classes do not see women as oppressed. They see more women in college than men. They see more women getting phDs. They see young, childless women making more than young men and all of the men in my classes are young.

Here is the slide from the Feminist Perspective
= Women’s subjugation coincided with rise of private property during industrialization
- Oppression of women inevitable in all male-dominated societies
- In U.S. male dominance goes far beyond economic sphere

The Status of Women Worldwide
- Women’s subordination is institutionally sanctioned
- Women remain in second-class positions in the world
- Women are exploited for labor in many developing countries

We do human trafficking work in class; not domestic violence work per se. We work on making everyone aware of the issue and advocate against it.

And what part of that do they disagree with? Women are oppressed in general. Men have most of the power and men have most of the money and control most of the resources. The young men are only seeing their small part of the world (as most young people do). The class is addressing the whole.