Of course there's an industry around womens' equality just as there is around cancer research, etc.
The one makes billions fueling controversy while the other makes billions fundraising.
It simply is. Denying that it is doesn't make it any less so.

Who is denying it?

I think we would all agree that anyone who needs help and shelter from abuse should get it. That doesn't mean we have to take away from some who need it to give to others. It means we have to give enough to cover all who need the help.

Women have had to work very hard to get the legislation they have on issues like rape and abuse. They have been fighting against the old views of women asking for it etc. The same stereotypes work against men who are raped and abused. Because of old views many men are afraid to report it (as many women still are afraid to report rape). Some guys fight the women who have worked so hard for change instead of fighting the stereotypes that make it difficult for them to get the help they need. Men need to fight for change, too, the same way women did and do, to get the abuse against men acknowledged and to make sure legislation includes them. In many places it already does. Because of the work already done many places mandate that in cases of domestic abuse, an arrest must be made. That means if the woman commits the abuse she must be arrested. More women are being charged and convicted. Men need to fight the old stereotypes and the idea that if abused or if they report it they are weak and not manly. Men and women need to work together because we are fighting the same thing. But, men need to start reporting it more than they do and need to demand the services to help them when they need it. The enemy is not the feminists who have fought hard for women. The enemy is the same people who have held women back. That includes women and men. Men still have most of the power to make legislation and to control funds and services. We need to elect people who understand and care, both men and women. Man haters and woman haters don't belong in our govts and guys and women with the old gender views do not belong in our govts. The majority needs to speak up more so that the extremists (the industries) are seen as the fringe groups they are. As long as we keep fighting over wording instead of fighting the problem, things will ever change.

1. By continuously pounding the idea into the heads of women that they aren't good enough and by insisting that "men" have to change without ever really saying exactly what "men" are supposed to do to bring about that change. Individual men - those who beat their wives, rapists, bosses who refuse to promote women - know what they have to do but the rest, who don't do those things, are left confused, feeling vaguely guilty of something though not sure of what, and unsure of what is expected of them.


This is from jim's writing. I think somewhere in there it's miswritten. Men aren't good enough maybe. It doesn't make sense to me as written

I meant to respond to this, Kathy, but forgot when writing other posts. What I meant about the industry pounding the idea into the heads of women that they aren't good enough is the constant call for gender equality in virtually all things. Admissions to college and university programs, weighting in political platforms and appointments, hiring quotas for various jobs are all subject to the pressure to increase the number of women. There is a subtext to these calls and that is that women aren't good enough to accomplish these goals on their own. That they have to be appointed to positions, not because of their abilities, but because they are women.

I understand now what you are saying, jim. I think we are good enough, and I don't think that's the root problem. I just spent 3 hours in Sexual Harassment Training at the hospital.

Good Lord, they have a problem with I like your outfit. It can look nice, but it can't be attractive because that has a sexual connotation. I think men are more comfortable with men. They don't have to worry about nice/attractive and it's just easier. I think this is a problem borne of addressing actual sexual harassment; sleep with me or you lose your job.

You make a valid point, jim ~ but, for me, women [with equal and/or better credentials] have been passed over in favor of men for generations ~ sometimes the playing field needs to be leveled ~

Sooz

I just spent 3 hours in Sexual Harassment Training at the hospital.

Does that get one novice harrasser certification?

In a similar vein, I read this today in an article about the last Household Survey done in Canada. They did not specify if it was for the same jobs, just the same "amount of work":

The reward for this full-time, year-round employment is a salary of $47,900, with males generally commanding 26 per cent more than females for the same amount of work.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/natio ... story.html

roseanne wrote:

[/i]

The problem with these comparisons is that they compare apples to oranges. If they surveyed to the same jobs, held for the same length of time and got that result there would be cause for complaint. But for all we know they are comparing widely varying types of work. Usually, when everything is held constant, the difference between men and women either disappears, becomes insignificant or, in some cases, is reversed with the women making more than men.

jim, do you believe there is now no discrimination against women?

While-ever you use the word "industry" to describe the Feminist movement (which is internally very diverse) you are insulting everyone who supports equality for women. They are apparently only in it because of self-interest or because they are the dupes of those who are.

Jeanne: jim, do you believe there is now no discrimination against women?

Not at all! I think there is still some degree of discrimination against women. It's changed over the years and the legislation is in place in most western countries to combat the rest. The strident, caterwauling. blame men for everything crusaders in the women as victims industry are simply making matters worse. The legislation is in place in most western countries to even the playing field so, instead of hanging around, whining and seeking ever increasing amounts of government largesse, do something about it. Nowhere are women allowed to make less money than men for doing the same work, for example, so, instead of squirreling yourself away in some two bit nail painting shop working for some woman for minimum wage, learn to use a welding stinger and go suck up some smoke. You'd be amazed to find out that, not only do you make the same money as the guy sitting beside you, you're in demand because, by and large, women make better welders....also machinists.

In general, what I am saying is quit blaming men for everything and start shouldering some of the responsibility for making things better. There are individual men who are assholes, but most of us aren't so, if you don't want to be shunned, held back and isolated at the workplace, tell your industry to shut the fuck up, quit blaming all men for everything so that they have to be afraid of you and show them what you can do.

Frankly, Chaos, the way that industry treats you as a woman is insulting to everyone who supports equality for women. Maybe if a few of these highly paid executives cut back a bit on a few conferences in exotic locations there would be some money to actually help both abused women and men.

In general, what I am saying is quit blaming men for everything and start shouldering some of the responsibility for making things better.

Excuse me??

But the opening article is talking about the men who are assholes.

And isn't pointing out what these assholes are doing an attempt to make things better?

I will sound like a very bad feminist, but I believe this to a degree, too. Women aren't objects at men's control. We, for the most part, control our decisions; good or bad.

I was ready to slap the abused 19 yo in the ER. She was texting the guy while I was talking to her and trying to get her help. Her aunt was with her. She was not alone without any family support. The aunt knew what I was talking about and listening, but the girl/woman wasn't. I would have gotten her to the woman's center whatever. Jeanne will say I am blaming the victim, but the victim isn't a doll she's a woman capable of making decisions.

kathy, please don't speak for me. I have several times pointed out that I differentiate between your student age kids and more mature adults. We as adults are supposed to educate them not just sit and bitch about how dumb they are. It's true that the extremists in the feminist movement don't really help them but neither do the men (and women) who blame all of women's problems on the women. I will never look at a person who has been abused or raped and think I'm ready to slap them. I will never think well see she deserved it, we told her not to wear that skirt. I will never blame clothes or lack of clothes for rape. I will never blame a girl's poor choices for her beating. This is disgusting. Yes, women can do things to try to keep themselves safer, will that stop rape? Not even close. Will it stop physical abuse? Not even close. Women could hide themselves away and never go near men and that wouldn't even stop rape and abuse. Rapists rape. Violent men abuse. Make all the excuses you want for them. It is them, not the women.

Um, jim, why do you think things have changed so much? Ha, it's because of the women who have fought for it and the men who have worked for it too instead of getting their little feelings hurt.

Tell my industry to shut the fuck up? So that men have to be afraid of them? Could that sound any wimpier? Poor baby, women are getting the shit beat out of them but forget that, the bad feminists said men and I am a man. Waaaaaaaaa. How is the extremist feminst view any worse than the bullshit you just posted? Both are ridiculous. Men need shelters too lets take them from the women. Men are too afraid to fight for what they need.

So the bad feminists blame all men and you blame all women who speak out for equality? How stupid is that.

I'm with you, chaos. All the women who had to work just to even get the right to vote. All of those who have worked so hard and sacrficed to get us where we are today. All of those who have worked to get women the right to control their own bodies, equal pay for equal work etc. None of them matter. Women are lazy and do nothing to help themselves.

Funny, I guess I miissed the part where women gained equal control of the power and money in this country. Yeah right, the men are willing to make everything equal and give up that power. It's those damned feminists that won't let them. We scare the guys and all they can do is whimper.

Women have finally achieved equality.
Like men, the whiners whine and the doers do.

I don't think it's exactly whining, oskar. I think different people have different frames of reference, and they react differently.

Violent men abuse. I would never make an excuse for abuse. That is silly. However. it is incumbent on the woman to accept help and leave the violent man especially if she has children.

Violent men abuse. I would never make an excuse for abuse. That is silly. However. it is incumbent on the woman to accept help and leave the violent man especially if she has children.

Violent women abuse. I would never make an excuse for abuse. That is silly. However. it is incumbent on the man to accept help and leave the violent woman especially if he has children.

I agree with your statement, too, oskar.

Utah State University Sexual Assault and Anti Violence Information

Myth: Rape victims provoke the attach by wearing provocative clothing

- A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only
4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part
of the victim. In murder cases 22% involved such behavior (as simple
as a glance).

- Most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing.

- Victims range in age from days old to those in their nineties,
hardly provocative dressers.

Utah State University
http://www.usu.edu/saavi/pdf/myths_facts.pdf

I can't get into your stats, ladybroker, but here's some chilling ones.

The Victims
One in 4 women will experience domestic violence during her lifetime.
Women experience more than 4 million physical assaults and rapes because of their partners, and men are victims of nearly 3 million physical assaults.
Women are more likely to be killed by an intimate partner than men
Women ages 20 to 24 are at greatest risk of becoming victims of domestic violence.
Every year, 1 in 3 women who is a victim of homicide is murdered by her current or former partner.

The Families
Every year, more than 3 million children witness domestic violence in their homes.
Children who live in homes where there is domestic violence also suffer abuse or neglect at high rates (30% to 60%).
A 2005 Michigan study found that children exposed to domestic violence at home are more likely to have health problems, including becoming sick more often, having frequent headaches or stomachaches, and being more tired and lethargic.
A 2003 study found that children are more likely to intervene when they witness severe violence against a parent – which can place a child at great risk for injury or even death.


http://www.safehorizon.org/index/what-w ... s-195.html