When it implies that I stated something I didn't, then yes, it becomes a problem.

Not necessarily. Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but to me one is based on a myth of an ethereal something or other that can be "saved". No proof exists for that. The other is based on scientific fact that our brains and systems are controlled by electrical energy that could possibly exist outside of our physical bodies without any god or gods.

I didn't say that I believed in ghosts, I am just saying that the possibility may exist due to the above. Sort of an "after image" of who or what we are that is left behind.

I believe in ghosts, Noah's ark, UFO's, Bigfoot, and a bunch of other stuff since I watched a lot of documentations on the Discovery Channel about it. That's a very credible channel and they wouldn't make stuff up.

But ?

This thread went off-the-tracks early on ~ but while pruning back my "saved to read/maybe post later" file, I found the link to Dan Arel's AlterNet commentaries ~ I still believe this will be a solid recurring thread, so I'm wading thru the long list, and will post the ones I find interesting/thought-provoking ~ Sooz

AlterNet / By Dan Arel
The Bizarre Behavior of Christian Conservatives This Week
The faithful are spinning out of control.

September 18, 2014 | If Christianity had its own PR flack, he would be slamming his fist on the desk right about now, as the faithful are spinning out of control.

A Tennessee man, Ronnie Monday, and his friends thought they were doing the "Lord’s work," by raising money to erect a massive billboard in the town of Portland that called homosexuality an abomination. It quotes Leviticus 18:22: “You shall not lie with a man as with a woman. It is an abomination.” To the right of the verse the billboard says, “Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin.” Yet what Monday didn’t address is that a few verses later in Leviticus, homosexuals are condemned to death. So much for loving the sinner.

The United States Air Force entered the religious battle this week when it said it would not let a veteran airman reenlist unless he swore an oath unto God. The airman, who has remained unnamed, signed the oath document, but crossed out the words “so help me God.” Bryan Fischer of the ultra-conservative American Family Association said that atheists should not even be allowed to serve in the armed forces. “There is no place in the United States military for those who do not believe in the Creator," he said. “A man who doesn’t believe in the Creator … most certainly should not wear the uniform.”

How quickly Fischer dismisses the lives of those like Pat Tillman, an open atheist who lost his life not long after he walked away from his professional football career to fight Al Qaeda after 9/11. The American Humanist Association and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation quickly took action against the Air Force, which strongly defended the wording of the oath. Eventually, the organizations wore the Air Force down, and it dropped its religious enlistment requirement.

After the Air Force’s decision to drop the requirement, the 700 Club's Pat Robertson went on an anti-Semitic tirade: “There’s a left-wing radical named Mikey Weinstein [president of MRFF] who has got a group about people against religion or whatever he calls it, and he has just terrorized the armed forces.” He continued, “You think you’re supposed to be tough, you’re supposed to defend us, and you got one little Jewish radical who is scaring the pants off of you.”

On the subject of the military, former presidential candidate Mike Huckabee declared in front of a crowd that the US should not fear a war with the Islamic militant group ISIS because Huckabee has read the Bible, and it contains a prophecy. "I got good news for all the dispirited and disquieted Christians in America who somehow are afraid that the Sons of Ishmael who are challenging us now in the Middle East will overwhelm the Sons of Isaac," Huckabee said. "Let me assure you, I have read the end of the book! My dear friend, we win!"

For those who have not read the Bible, there is a massive lack of information about how to deal with ISIS, but that did not stop Huckabee, who even appeared on Fox News endorsing greater military action, saying dropping bombs is not enough to “eradicate ISIS.”

And last, if you are not familiar with Jesus’ famous sermon on the mount, Jesus blessed the poor and the hungry. But now he's blessing the gun nuts? Pat Robertson, who can't stay out of the news, has added a new verse: “Blessed are the fully armed because theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.”

Robertson was referring to earlier fear-mongering comments in which he claimed, “Violent attacks and even deaths on church property occur far more often than people realize.” But Robertson had good news for his viewers, saying, “The good news: You can protect yourself. What are you going to do, are you going to give church members AK-47s at the door to let them blow away those intruders?”

I don’t think Jesus meant handguns when he said, “Blessed are the peacemakers.”

http://www.alternet.org/belief/bizarre-behavior-christian-conservatives-week?paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark

And there's part of the problem.
The President of the United States is also the Commander-In-Chief of the armed forces. As such, he can order the Air Force to clean up its act and those who disagree can resign their commissions or get fired with cause for not upholding the Constitution as they are sworn to do. Y'all have far too many generals and such in the first place.

So am I to deduct from the discussion that critical thinking rules out faith? That we are not to teach our children about faith and its inherent value in our lives? And what "fact" does a person draw out of the core of his spirit when his world as he knows it shatters? Survisors of the Holocaust would laugh at this discussion

Atheists also were survivors of the holocaust.
And homosexuals, Romas, socialists, freethinkers.

I believe all those mentioned by Jab probably had faith in something/someone and faith by definition defies critical thinking

Cannalee, I agree that "critical thinking" conflicts with "faith" ~ but I also believe that the "faithful" can be critical thinkers in matters other than faith ~

And I think you would be as surprised as I was with what I learned from some friends' parents who were [one or both] Holocaust survivors ~ not a single one emerged with any faith they may have once known intact ~ they felt "sacrificed" and "betrayed" ~ we had long discussions about "faith" for a number of years [until the parents died of natural causes] ~ some did attend synagogue services, mostly on the high holidays ~ but they said they did it out of tradition, not faith ~

Sooz

I am surprised. I can't comprehend going through something like that without faith. I know I and others like me are the butt of a lot of jokes and ridicule but I think there comes a time in life when brains and strength and determination fail and that's when man meets faith.

In the case of sooz's friends, brains, strength and determination led to their survival when their faith failed.
Funny how that works, eh?

I sincerely apologize if I or anyone here in VoC made you feel you were the butt of jokes ~ the ones I ridicule are those who believe their way is the only way, and we must all conform to their belief set ~

Sooz

I was knocked out by these people, oskar ~ they were each fairly quiet and soft-spoken ~ but each of them had an internal core stronger than Hercules ~

Sooz

That's very often the case, sooz.
My wife is like that.
(I'm more volatile.)