My fault. I dropped the "clarity" ball.

My last comment and then I'm done: it saddens me that I cannot dissuade you of your view of this topic
Inherent in the discussion is respect of the law. Brown was not an innocent college kid walking down the street munching his bag of chips but a thug who had assaulted a police officer and was intent on assaulting him again. Testimony supports this
Had the grand jury indicted Wilson It would have been a tragic insult to Law and Law Enforcement.

"Had the grand jury indicted Wilson It would have been a tragic insult to Law and Law Enforcement."

Perhaps, but it would have been a three-pointer for Justice.

Cannalee, have you read any of the grand jury docs I linked to in post #11 above? ~ and do you understand the limits of a grand jury, or the important differences between a grand jury and a trial jury?

Sooz

Edited to add: "... or the important differences ..." above ~

FTR, I'm not being snarky in my last post ~ I'm genuinely curious ~

Sooz

Just to be clear, I don't think Wilson should have been charged with murder. IMO, he should have been charged with criminal negligence causing death.

To be honest I have not read the docs but am going to go to library and research your link. But according to newspaper prevailing testimony supported Wilson's account. According to the Washington Times law experts agree the investigation done by the grand jury was outstanding.

And the legal community (as opposed to newspaper op-eds) says?

One addition: my understanding of a grand jury is that they have almost unlimited investigative power and are not constrained by courtroom process. It is my understanding it is more intense than a preliminary hearing.

Delta police officer charged with murder after 2012 Starlight Casino standoff
By KIM BOLAN, Vancouver Sun
October 20, 2014

METRO VANCOUVER - For the first time in decades, a B.C. police officer has been charged with murder for his role in a fatal shooting while on duty.

Delta Police Const. Jordan MacWilliams, a former member of the Municipal Integrated Emergency Response Team, is facing one count of second-degree murder for the fatal 2012 shooting of Merhdad Bayrami, 48, during an armed standoff.

Neil MacKenzie of the B.C. Criminal Justice Branch said the charge was filed against MacWilliams Monday in B.C. Supreme Court.

The young officer, a cop for about five and a half years, appeared in a New Westminster courtroom and was released on bail.

MacWilliams had been on the emergency response team for just seven months when he and other officers were called to New Westminster’s Starlight Casino on Nov. 8, 2012 to deal with a man outside who had a handgun.

Bayrami was shot on a pathway near the casino after a five-hour standoff. He died later in hospital.

The Independent Investigation Office reviewed the case and submitted a report to Crown counsel, MacKenzie said.

The Crown requested additional information from investigators, which was provided earlier this year and led to the murder charge being approved, MacKenzie said.

Vancouver lawyer Ravi Hira said he has never heard of a B.C. case of an on-duty ERT officer facing a murder count.

“These types of cases are very rare and certainly in British Columbia in the 32 years that I have been practising, I have never come across a police officer charged with murder in the course of executing his duties as a police officer, in particular as part of an ERT team,” Hira said.

“While such charges are very rare, the system leading to charges is a very careful robust system. Charges are not lightly laid.”

He pointed to a recent Ontario Appeal Court case where a Toronto ERT member was originally charged with second-degree murder after his gun went off during a 2010 arrest.

After a preliminary hearing, a judge threw out the murder charge and said the Crown had not met its burden for manslaughter either. The Crown appealed and lost earlier this year.

Hira said police officers do have the ability to use deadly force, as long as it’s not determined to be excessive.

“Police officers have an additional defence beyond ordinary citizens because their duties require them to act. They can’t walk away,” Hira said. “The Crown has to prove it was excessive beyond a reasonable doubt.”

Former B.C. solicitor general Kash Heed, a cop for 30 years, also said a murder charge against an ERT member is almost unheard of.

“Very seldom when they use that level of force [the ERT] are there charges,” Heed said. “I’m surprised.”

Heed said there have been more cases of murder charges laid against police in Ontario, such as the one laid last year against Toronto Police Const. James Forcillo after teen Sammy Yatim was fatally shot on a streetcar while wielding a knife.

“There have been a couple in Toronto where the officers have been charged,” Heed said. “So there may be a trend toward it and we are starting to see it here in British Columbia.”

He said the charges come after public demands for more accountability from law enforcement agencies generally.

“When we have unfortunate incidents where police have to apply deadly force, the public automatically becomes alarmed,” Heed said.

“I think that police organizations that have been more internally focused have to be more transparent, not only on their use of force guidelines, but on how that use of force is applied.”

Few details about the circumstances of the Bayrami shooting were revealed at the time.

New Westminster Police Insp. Phil Eastwood told reporters the incident began around 6 a.m. outside Starlight. He said Bayrami had not been inside the 24-hour casino before police arrived.

Eastwood said the public was never in danger and that negotiators spoke to Bayrami, who had no criminal record in B.C.

MacWilliams was placed on administrative duty after the shooting. He is now on paid leave, Delta Police confirmed Monday.

Delta Chief Jim Cessford issued a statement offering condolences to Bayrami’s family and saying he knows little about the case.

“I respect and understand the roles of Crown counsel and the Independent Investigations Office. This incident occurred almost two years ago and, given the independent nature of the investigation, I have limited knowledge of the details regarding this matter,” Cessford said. “Also, considering the fact that this matter is now before the courts I am not in a position to make any comment relative to the charges against Const. MacWilliams.”

Back in the 1970s, there were charges laid again Vancouver officers in two fatal shootings.

One cop was charged with manslaughter after his gun went off as he struggled with a suspect in a 1972 arrest. The charge was dismissed at the preliminary inquiry. And another cop was charged with second-degree murder in a 1975 shooting during a struggle. The officer was acquitted at trial.

Another VPD officer was charged with careless use of a firearm after his gun went off during a pursuit in 1989, paralyzing a 22-year-old man. The officer was acquitted at trial.


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Delta+ ... z3KZtHgTCr

I'm sorry I haven't learned to cut and paste on this phone yet! But Washington Times quoted several law professors and I don't think the article was an op ed but I don't know. Perhaps I was wrong in quoting it if it turns out to be an op ed--it didn't read like an op ed.

South Carolina police officer charged in shooting of unarmed man during traffic stop

White cop, black victim.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/s ... an-charged

The Washington Times op-ed (owned and funded by the Moonies) allegedly quotes unnamed law professors?

Regarding Oskar latest post: a gun accidentally going off and the firing of a weapon in the line of duty are two different happenings.

Which gun "accidentally" went off?

What I think really went wrong is that the prosecutor basically "went to trial" before the Grand Jury rather than submit evidence to the Grand Jury and letting them do their job which is to decide whether to go to trial or not.
IMO, the entire process should be started over from the git-go in an impartial venue, if at all possible.

Totally illegal but oh yes we've already established how much respect the law is getting in the media

What's totally illegal?
Which gun went off "accidentally"?

My reply to your above comment, Cannalee, is both you're right and you're wrong in practice ~ you need to understand the grand jury process to recognize who IS and who IS NOT "respecting the law" ~ and as an aside, the Washington Times [owned by the "Moonies"] is a widely recognized far-right publication ~ need I remind you how "flexible" the far right can be in interpreting who and when the law applies and who has "rights"? ~

A grand jury’s ONLY purpose is to determine if there is enough evidence to bring someone to trial ~ the grand jury is NOT a trier of fact, nor does it decide “guilt” or “innocence” ~ there is no voir dire process with grand jurors, a process that allows both prosecuting and defense attorneys to question potential jurors to get a sense of their mindsets ~ grand juries are “secret” to the extent that only prosecutors are allowed to attend ~ NO defense attorneys are present ~ it’s a fact of life that prosecutors are usually closely aligned with police ~ it’s also a fact of life that prosecutors usually WANT cases to go to trial and, by extension, are in a position of protecting the victim ~ in this specific case, the potential defendant IS a policeman [who is still alive] and not the victim [who is dead] ~

There were numerous problems with the Ferguson grand jury, beginning and ending with the prosecutorial errors ~ here’s just a few of the ways the Ferguson grand jury process went wrong ~ first and maybe most importantly, even tho requested, no special prosecutor was appointed ~ McCullough’s personal history required that ~ also, one of the prosecutors in the proceedings gave WRONG information to the grand jurors about what law was in effect, citing an overturned law, and did NOT correct that misinformation until weeks later but with no accompanying explanation ~ it is VERY unusual for a potential defendant to testify to a grand jury ~ Wilson was allowed to testify for over 4 hours, with NO attorney representing Michael Brown present to question any of Wilson’s statements or contest any of Wilson's "facts" or contradictions ~ also VERY unusual were the number of “leaks” coming out from the grand jury ~ someone, either a prosecutor or a juror, was breaking the code of silence mandated by the grand jury process ~

I'll post a few commentaries from recognized legal experts [with no overt "politics as usual" mindsets] ~

Sooz

Another thing to remember is that the practice of law is the practice of interpretation ~ since ALL humans are fallible, virtually all laws are open to interpretation ~ and, generally, virtually all laws are subject to differing interpretations ~ that's where precedence comes into play ~

Sooz

I'm sorry I haven't learned to cut and paste on this phone yet! But Washington Times quoted several law professors and I don't think the article was an op ed but I don't know. Perhaps I was wrong in quoting it if it turns out to be an op ed--it didn't read like an op ed.

Cannalee, I'm not taking a side on this topic, but I do know that The Washington Times is, in its entirety, a right wing op ed. You'll see a "news article" that presents both sides of a political or cultural issue there when pigs fly.

Sigh--obviously I'm rusty as well as limited with no full Internet but what alternative did Wilson have to shooting Brown? Really what alternative did he have?

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... not shooting him?

Really SERIOUSLY..and Brown jumps Wilson a second time because Wilson FAILS to shoot. And what if Brown goes berserk after killing Wilson and in his mania kills two bystanders? Very plausible scenario. Still think Wilson should not have shot Brown?

Before addressing that there are two unanswered questions for you.