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PostPosted: 12/21/14 4:33 pm • # 26 
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roseanne wrote:
roseanne wrote:
I think most of our judicial proceedings are now corrupt. Appointed (partisan) judges in particular. But, you are right. Those elected (judges, prosecutors) are not much more than political mouthpieces who talk out of both sides of their mouths. Either way, you get skewed representation.

As with everything, there are honest ones, but I think that number has shrunk in the last few decades.


I forgot to add to my post: That is why a grand jury is needed. Average citizens who can decide the merits of a case with (hopefully) no prejudice or political pressure.


An excellent explanation of the inherent weakness of grand juries.


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PostPosted: 12/21/14 4:35 pm • # 27 
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And be manipulated by corrupt officials. It doesn't solve the problem, just adds another level of complexity.


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PostPosted: 12/21/14 6:29 pm • # 28 
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According to Wiki the United States is virtually the only country that retains grand juries.
I wonder why every other country dropped the use of them.


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PostPosted: 12/21/14 6:32 pm • # 29 
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jabra2 wrote:
According to Wiki the United States is virtually the only country that retains grand juries.
I wonder why every other country dropped the use of them.


Or never had them.


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PostPosted: 12/22/14 8:30 am • # 30 
The glaring problem with the grand jury process is the only evidence they basically hear is the evidence the prosecutor chooses to present. Generally no exculpatory evidence which is why it was so unusual to have Wilson's testimony presented. The grand jury process is the game of the prosecutor. In the cases of the police involved shootings there is too much at stake for the prosecution to "win" a bill of indictment. That's why Sooz was insisting on a public trial. On retrospect I agree with her.


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PostPosted: 12/22/14 9:13 am • # 31 
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I repeat my comments from post #24 above ~ there are "live links" to more/corroborating information in the Steve Benen commentary posted below ~ Sooz

Sooz wrote:
WTF is wrong with people? ~ Giuliani [remember that POS?] is blaming Obama for telling everyone to "hate the police" ~ the prez of the NY police union is blaming DeBlasio for encouraging protesters against the police and the protesters ~ Fox News is blaming Obama and black leaders for creating an anti-police environment ~ Lindsay Graham [yes, Lindsay Graham] is the only one so far saying he blames the SHOOTER ~

The death of the two police officers was tragic ~ so were the deaths of the black teenagers and black men ~ one does NOT cancel the other ~ anyone who is making this a "political" issue is despicable in my book ~

The unfortunate rush to politicize the NYPD murders
12/22/14 08:01 AM—Updated 12/22/14 08:10 AM
By Steve Benen

Saturday’s murder of two New York police officers, Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos, was as brutal as it was heartbreaking. There wasn’t even a violent confrontation – the gunman, Ismaaiyl Brinsley, simply approached the officers’ squad car in Brooklyn and opened fire, before fleeing to a nearby subway station and killing himself.

We also continue to learn more about the murderer, including his criminal background, the fact that he shot his ex-girlfriend, Shaneka Thompson, on Saturday morning, and his brazen boasts before he targeted two NYPD officers.

And while many were still trying to come to terms with such a senseless tragedy, the effort to inject partisan politics into the calamity was almost immediate. Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani (R) helped lead the way, appearing on Fox News early yesterday, connecting “four months of propaganda starting with the president” to the slaying.

Quote:
Giuliani went out of his way to be clear that he’s not blaming a handful of bad apples. He thinks the culprits are everyone protesting police misconduct everywhere.

“The protests are being embraced, the protests are being encouraged. The protests, even the ones that don’t lead to violence – a lot of them lead to violence – all of them lead to a conclusion: The police are bad. The police are racist,” said Giuliani. “That is completely wrong. Actually, the people who do the most for the black community in America are the police.”

He was hardly alone. Former New York Gov. George Pataki (R), who last week talked up a possible presidential campaign, lashed out at NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio and Attorney General Eric Holder. Rep. Peter King (R-N.Y.) pointed fingers at Obama, among others.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) blamed the shooter, but only after saying Holder and de Blasio use a “tone” that “incites crazy people.” Even former Sen. Scott Brown (R), fresh off his latest failed campaign, was quick to point fingers at the Oval Office. “I’m not sure what this country will look like with two more years of divisive rhetoric from the White House,” the Republican said, just hours after the slaying.

Assorted far-right voices and media outlets spent much of yesterday condemning their perceived foes; many urged the New York mayor to resign as if de Blasio were directly responsible for the violence of a madman.

I can appreciate how difficult it is to understand such mindless, cold-blooded violence. It’s tempting to find someone else to blame, especially when the gunman himself cannot face justice. But there is no moral justification for using a tragedy like this to score points in a partisan game.

Obviously, everyone will grieve, mourn, and ache in their own way, but when someone instinctively thinks, “Perhaps I can use the slaying of police officers to undermine my political rivals,” there is no nobility to their cause. They do their “team” no favors. There is no decency in exploiting murder to advance ideological ends.

It is wrong, it is ugly, and it is incumbent on those who think this way to reflect on what’s become of their moral compass.

There’s also value in having longer memories. In 2008, Jim David Adkisson walked into a Unitarian church in Tennessee, opened fire, and killed two people while wounding seven others. The shooter said he felt compelled to kill liberals because they’re bad for the country, and police later found books written by Fox News hosts in Adkisson’s home.

Was Sean Hannity responsible for these murders? Of course not. Deranged people are capable of horrific acts; their preferred television personalities are not to blame.

A year later, in 2009, Richard Poplawski gunned down three police officers in Pittsburgh. He later said he targeted law enforcement because of the non-existent “Obama gun ban” he’d heard about in the media. Were conservative figures who’d carelessly used the ridiculous phrase partially responsible for the death of the three officers? No, they weren’t.

There’s no shortage of related examples. Joe Stack flew an airplane into a building, motivated by anti-government sentiment. Dr. George Tiller’s assassin was motivated by his opposition to abortion rights. The Oklahoma City bombers killed 168 people. How much responsibility do mainstream conservative pundits and politicians carry for these crimes? None.

There was also Cliven Bundy’s dangerous conflict with the Bureau of Labor Management – which generated all kinds of support from Republican policymakers and conservative pundits – and which “eventually motivated Jerad and Amanda Miller to kill five people in Las Vegas after participating in the Bundy standoff … declaring, ‘If they’re going to come bring violence to us, well, if that’s the language they want to speak, we’ll learn it.’”

Under the reasoning espoused by Giuliani, King, Pataki, and others over the weekend, the responsibility for all kinds of violence should apparently be extended to every corner of our political world.

Which is largely why this the blame game isn’t worth playing. Tragically, lunatics sometimes commit horrific crimes. When it comes to maintaining a healthy discourse in a free society, let’s not connect their violence to political opinions we may or may not like.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-unfortunate-rush-politicize-the-nypd-murders#break


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PostPosted: 12/23/14 10:02 am • # 32 
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This is a very powerful and well-targeted read ~ it goes much further than just Giuliani's ugly partisan mindset, crossing the whole spectrum of GOP/TPers ~ it also corrects prior misinformation: the shooter's girlfriend was not killed, she is in critical condition but expected to live ~ there are "live links" to more/corroborating information in the original ~ Sooz

Tuesday, Dec 23, 2014 1:30 PM UTC
Rudy Giuliani crosses line on race: Why GOP must finally push back on his recklessness
Blaming the murder of two NYPD officers on President Obama isn't just stupid — it's delegitimizing and obscene.
Elias Isquith

Quite appropriately, considering how terrible much of the news this year has been, it looks like the last big story of 2014 will be the horrifying murder of two NYPD officers this weekend by Ismaaiyl Brinsley, an unhappy and mentally unstable 28-year-old man who had a history of trouble with the law and a propensity for violence. Claiming on social media beforehand that he was doing it in the name of avenging Michael Brown and Eric Garner, Brinsley approached a squad car in Brooklyn on Saturday and pitilessly killed the two unsuspecting officers within before killing himself after a brief attempt to escape. Like Shaneka Thompson, the Air Force reservist and former girlfriend he’d shot in the stomach earlier that day (who is in critical condition but expected to recover), neither Officer Wenjian Liu nor Officer Rafael Ramos was white.

The worst thing about this terrible event is, by far, the fear and pain that has been visited on those who care for Thompson, Ramos and Liu. On a human level, that’s what most matters. But on the level of politics — which occasionally intersects with that of humanity, but far less often than you’d hope — a terrible development was the response. As my colleague Joan Walsh explained already, a truly surprising and disappointing number of high-profile conservatives and Republicans didn’t even wait until the public knew Brinsley’s name before they began using his atrocity for their own, tangentially related purposes. New York City Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association head Patrick Lynch, for example, almost immediately integrated the attack into his ongoing campaign against Mayor Bill de Blasio. Former Gov. George Pataki, meanwhile, used it to bash de Blasio and test the waters for the latest iteration of his quadrennially threatened (and quadrennially ignored) potential White House run.

Yet even though blaming New York’s mayor for Brinsley’s actions is irrational (and so opportunistic that it borders on the obscene), even more shocking, even more inexcusable, and even more disturbing were the comments from ex-Mayor Rudy Giuliani. The failed presidential candidate and well-compensated consultant to Serbian nationalists trained his fire not so much at Mayor de Blasio as President Obama, whom he charged with fostering an atmosphere that made actions like Brinsley’s seem OK. “We’ve had four months of propaganda, starting with the president, that everybody should hate the police,” Giuliani said on Fox News Sunday morning. “The protests are being embraced, the protests are being encouraged,” he continued. Even the peaceful protests, he said, “lead to a conclusion: The police are bad, the police are racist.” Giuliani all but laid the slain officers’ caskets at the president’s feet.

While it should not surprise us that a man who once, in complete earnestness, said “[f]reedom is about authority” thinks all forms of organized dissent against law enforcement are illegitimate, we should be shaken and concerned by the complete lack of pushback from other elite Republicans that Giuliani’s comments received. Despite the fact that nothing — absolutely, positively nothing — the president said in response to the turmoil in Ferguson or the outrage in Staten Island could be reasonably construed as even tacitly endorsing violence, no high-profile GOPer even tried to scold “America’s mayor” for his brazen claims. In spite of the fact that Giuliani’s comments could only make sense if you accepted a racialized and erroneous subtext (black protesters and president vs. white police), no Republican publicly disagreed. And when Erick Erickson, predictably, brought Giuliani’s insinuation to the surface, saying Obama “does not like the United States,” the silence remained.

When we think of the ways in which Obama’s most virulent enemies have sought to delegitimize him, to depict him not only as wrong on various issues as well as lacking in character but as fundamentally deceitful and un-American, we conjure up images of the birthers. We think of claims that he’s actually from Kenya and/or Indonesia, that he’s lying about his Christianity and/or as his name. But even though the Democrats, the mainstream media and elements of the Republican establishment have managed to push the birthers to the fringes of the GOP, there’s little reason to think Giuliani, Erickson and others who make arguments like theirs will be ostracized from polite society. That’s a great injustice — because what they’re doing now and what the birthers do is, fundamentally, the same.

Granted, alleging President Obama is on a decades-long mission, which began at the time of his birth, to destroy the United States from within is much more superficially outlandish than alleging that he encourages the murder of police. But both claims, at their essence, depict the president as alien from the rest of American society, as an interloper with nefarious designs. For the birthers, Obama is a secret Muslim or Marxist or lizard (or a combination of all three) who wants to weaken the U.S. in order to implement some shadowy scheme. And for Giuliani and Erickson, he’s a secret radical, a crypto-black nationalist, the New Black Panther Party’s best friend in D.C. He’s not a milquetoast liberal technocrat reformer, but an extremist in camouflage, inciting a race war and the murder of police.

These wild, bigoted fever dreams are dangerous accusations for anyone to excuse or ignore, no matter the target. But they’re especially unacceptable when the accused is the first African-American president of the United States. This country has a long, ugly history of treating people of color — but especially black people — as somehow less than fully American. That’s part of what made Obama’s ascension to the White House so important and extraordinary. The prospect of the country’s first black president being repeatedly accused by his political opponents of stoking a race war and sowing disorder is therefore a scary one; and if it came to pass, it would be a clear step back from where we were as recently as 2008. And this is why it’s imperative that all the key players in the political elite push these sentiments back underground, as they (mostly) did with the birthers.

If they’re serious about wanting to strive for national unity and reconciliation on race in America, Republicans and conservatives need to distance themselves from Erickson and Giuliani’s comments — ASAP.

Salon


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PostPosted: 12/27/14 11:54 am • # 33 
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This is just WRONG ... on so many levels ~ Pat Lynch is a self-aggrandizing creep who just wants to keep the politics roiling and his own name in the news ~ he himself showed a disgusting lack of respect for staging this at a funeral ~ :g ~ Sooz

Police outside cop funeral turn backs on NY mayor
By JONATHAN LEMIRE and MIKE BALSAMO, Associated Press | 23 mins ago

NEW YORK (AP) — Hundreds of officers outside the church where a funeral was held for a policeman killed along with his partner in an ambush shooting turned their backs on the mayor as he spoke during Saturday's service.

The reaction from officers watching Officer Rafael Ramos' funeral on giant TV screens followed comments from police union officials who had said Mayor Bill de Blasio contributed to a climate of mistrust that contributed to the killings of the two officers.

Inside Christ Tabernacle Church in Queens, however, mourners gave de Blasio polite applause before and after his speech.

The mayor said hearts citywide were aching after the Dec. 20 shootings that left Ramos and his partner, Wenjian Liu, dead.

Police union officials have blamed de Blasio for fostering anti-police sentiment for his support of protesters angry that no charges will be filed in the police deaths of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, and Eric Garner on Staten Island. At a hospital after the officers' slayings, the police union's president, Patrick Lynch, and others turned their backs on de Blasio in a sign of disrespect. Lynch said the mayor had "blood on his hands."

Weeks before the shooting, Lynch had suggested that officers sign a petition requesting that the mayor not attend their funerals were they to die in the line of duty.

De Blasio has stood firmly by the police since the shooting, calling on the demonstrators to temporarily halt their protests and praising officers after the police department announced the arrest of a seventh person since the shooting for making threats against police.

The mayor followed Vice President Joe Biden and Gov. Andrew Cuomo on the roster of speakers eulogizing Ramos on Saturday.

Officers inside and outside the church applauded when Biden called the New York Police Department the finest in the world.

"When an assassin's bullet targeted two officers, it targeted this city and it touched the soul of an entire nation," the vice president said.

Cuomo called the daylight shootings of the officers as they sat in their cruiser on a street in Brooklyn's Bedford-Stuyvesant section "an attack on all of us."

The attack shook the city and put an end to large-scale local protests criticizing police over a series of high-profile, in-custody deaths.

Funeral plans for Ramos' partner, Officer Wenjian Liu, have yet to be announced.

When the Ramos family arrived at the church Saturday, the eldest son — wearing his father's NYPD jacket — was hugged by a police officer.

Ramos was described Friday during an eight-hour wake as a selfless, caring and compassionate man.

"What happened to my father was a tragedy," Ramos' son, Justin, said in a tearful eulogy viewed by hundreds of officers in the street who watched on giant television screens outside the crowded church. "But his death will not be in vain."

Ramos, a 40-year-old married father of two, was studying to become a pastor and kept Bible study books in his locker, his commanding officer said.

Officer Dustin Lindaman of the Waterloo Police Department flew from Iowa to attend Ramos' funeral.

"He's one of our brothers, and when this happens, it affects everyone in law enforcement — it absolutely affects everyone," he said. "We wanted to show our support."

A block from the church, retired NYPD Officer John Mangan held a sign that read: "God Bless the NYPD. Dump de Blasio."

"If the mayor really wanted to do the right thing, he would have gotten into an NYPD car and rode around Bed Stuy and see the difficult jobs these cops do every day," Mangan said. "The bottom line is there should be more signs out here in support of these cops."

After the officers' deaths, the gunman, Ismaaiyl Brinsley killed himself. Police said he was troubled and had shot and wounded an ex-girlfriend in Baltimore earlier that day.

In online posts shortly before the attack, Brinsley referenced the killings of two unarmed black men — Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, and Eric Garner on Staten Island — by white police officers.

Ramos and Liu were the first officers to die in the line of duty in New York since 2011.

They have both been posthumously promoted to first-grade detective, police said.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/police-outside-cop-funeral-turn-backs-on-ny-mayor/ar-BBhfTb1


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