Lots of media coverage about this incident over the weekend ~ I strongly support Zerlina Maxwell's mindset here ~ I'll post other reads that quote the ugly/threatening/disgusting tweets she received from Hannity viewers following her appearance on his show ~ ~ Sooz

Friday, Mar 8, 2013 01:29 PM CST
Can men be taught not to rape?
Zerlina Maxwell said men can prevent rape — and recounts for Salon the nightmare that followed thereafter.
By Mary Elizabeth Williams

If you want to know why we need to educate men not to be sexually aggressive, look no further than what happened when Zerlina Maxwell went on television to say that we need to educate men how not to be sexually aggressive.

Maxwell was on Fox’s “Hannity” this week to discuss guns, rape and college students. The issues have been especially hot button in recent days, after Democratic Colorado state Sen. Evie Hudak delivered a tone-deaf response to a rape survivor, saying that “Statistics are not on your side even if you had a gun. And, chances are that if you would have had a gun, then he would have been able to get that from you and possibly use it against you.”

As Maxwell, a rape survivor herself, told Salon on Friday, “I don’t think we need to be telling a rape survivor that statistics are not on your side. That’s insensitive.” But where she drew outrage was in her suggestion to Hannity that “I don’t think that we should be telling women anything. I think we should be telling men not to rape women and start the conversation there.” She told Hannity, “You’re talking about this as if it’s some faceless, nameless criminal, when a lot of times it’s someone you know and trust,” adding, “If you train men not to grow up to become rapists, you prevent rape.”

The mere notion that maybe men need to be involved in the conversation about sexual violence earned Maxwell instant disdain, anger – and a lot worse. The Blaze called her remarks “bizarre” and the Washington Times reported that she’d “argued against women arming themselves.” Deeper down on the Internet, the responses got even more scathing, from bloggers who said she’d been “oversimplifying” to the Twitter trolls who told her she ought to get raped. Thanks for the feedback, Internet dopes. Why would anybody think that you need some sensitivity training?

“I knew going in I was going to get a lot of pushback,” Maxwell says. “I didn’t think I would receive rape threats. I can’t even go on my Facebook page; it’s full of people wanting to rape me. It’s too triggering. The amount of insensitivity is shocking.”

As Maxwell tells Salon, her point to Hannity was not about self-defense; it was about how we look at the big picture. “Telling every woman to get a gun is not rape prevention,” she explains. “The reality is that we need to be changing how we train and teach young men. We need to teach them to see women as human beings and respect their bodily autonomy. We need to teach them about consent and to hold themselves accountable.” And when we do, things change. After Canada launched a “Don’t be that guy” consent awareness campaign in 2011, the sexual assault rate dropped for the first time in years — by 10 percent.

Absolutely, sometimes the rapist is the guy with a ski mask who jumps out of an alley. And no, he doesn’t care about learning to be a better person. But Hannity’s offhand remark that “evil exists in the world” reduces the experience of rape to one particular type – the violent stranger attack. Absolutely, we need to continue to empower women to avoid high-risk situations, to get themselves out of them when they’re in them and to defend themselves however they best see fit. But when rape is overwhelmingly an act perpetrated by men upon women, we also sure as hell need to stop thinking of it exclusively in terms of what women have to do to prevent it. We need to involve men and boys. We need to remember, as a revealing Reddit thread last year proved, that a rapist can be your friend or your boyfriend or your co-worker. We need to acknowledge that a rapist can be your husband. That, as chilling as it is to admit, as Maxwell says, “Those kids in Steubenville were average guys.”

Maxwell says, “I don’t want anybody to lecture a rape survivor about anything. And I don’t want anybody telling women that if you don’t wear a skirt or don’t drink at all you’re going to be safe. That is a lie.” What she wants instead is more training, more dialogue and a process that is much longer and harder, and infinitely subtler, than just telling women to get a gun or not wear high heels. Maxwell says, “I knew that [doing "Hannity"] was going to be hard, but I did it because I knew that I wasn’t speaking just for myself. I’m not alone. Clearly, what we’ve been doing isn’t working. We’re telling women to be afraid of the person in the bushes when it’s the person in your house. We need a reality check. We’re talking about the wrong things. We’re asking the wrong questions.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/08/can_men_be_taught_not_to_rape/

Publicly exposing their [real?] names and sexist/racist/demeaning mindsets on these tweets makes me rethink my often-posted opinion that it's the anonymity of the internet that makes some people become monsters online ~ ~ Sooz

TPM Editor’s Blog
Monstrous
Josh Marshall - March 9, 2013, 5:34 PM

This is a kind of blood-curdling story I just learned about this afternoon. Zerlina Maxwell is an acquaintance who I’ve watched from a distance as she builds a media career as a progressive pundit and activist — succeeding to an amazing degree while also getting a law degree. I met her for I think only the second time in person at my birthday party last weekend. I just found out that since an appearance on Hannity on Tuesday she’s basically been under an escalating online assault filled with racist epithets and threats of rape all for stating what I think is a fairly straightforward opinion on the intersecting issues of guns and rape.

Here’s a post Zerlina did at the feminist blog Feministing on this on Thursday while things were still heating up.

Now, I think we all realize that the Internet is not a representative medium and it tends to bring out the lowest common denominator types across the political and cultural spectra. But this strikes me as being in a more extreme category.

First, here’s the segment in question.


The question at issue is whether women should carry or have the right to carry firearms to protect themselves against rape and sexual violence. The gist of Zerlina’s argument was that it should be on men and the culture in general to make rape and sexual assault unacceptable rather than on women to arm themselves to not be raped. In other words, don’t put it on her to carry a gun any more than you tell her to dress a particular way or anything else. The underlying point of debate was whether rape is just something like murder or robbery — something that will always exist to some, hopefully limited, degree — or something that is bound up in and encouraged or discouraged by our culture. In other words, whether men can be taught not to rape.

As you’ll see if you watch it, Zerlina reveals in the segment that she is herself a rape survivor.

The pros and cons of the specific argument about guns speak for themselves and Zerlina makes it better than I can. What I’m interested in focusing on is the sort of digital lynch mob, seemingly churned up by a post on the segment at The Blaze and other sites, the segment generated.

Zerlina sent me a few examples of what she’s been on the receiving end of …


I’ve been on the receiving end of really vicious online attacks before, most recently centered on this post. And it’s difficult to describe — even though it’s just words — what the experience is like. And I’ve never been on the receiving end of stuff like this. I don’t really have more to add than my ability to shine a light on this.

[Ed.Note: I should note that in the argument he made in the segment above, Hannity was … well, Hannity. But there was really nothing he did or said to encourage these kinds of attacks. And Zerlina tells me that off camera he was very compassionate and supportive of her decision to discuss her own rape as part of the segment in question.]

http://editors.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/03/this_is_a_kind_of.php?ref=fpblg

Wow. I'm not even sure how to respond to this. It's amazing the hatred over such simple comments.

It's as if she totally condemned their way of life by saying the solution is not to arm women. They are responding as if they think, "What the hell do you mean, guns are not the solution?!"

Funny, I heard the pro gun rhetoric, but my reaction, as a woman, was- why do men think rape is a woman's problem? and it made me think of the problems in India and Egypt where women are gang raped in public without any recourse, and how this problem seems to be getting worse, or at least getting more publicity. And why would I want to let a rapist turn me into a killer?

Then I started thinking about kids, teens, where parties have turned into gang rapes by seemingly "innocent" or "normal" classmates. And then just date rape in gerenal, coersion, being taken advantage of. do I really wish that I shot that guy who drunkenly tried to force himself on me at a party?

And why is it that sexy dress and high heels makes it ok to rape? Is it not ok to try to look attractive to a man you might want to choose to be with, without accepting abuse and rape from any man you might not be choosing?

What is REALLY wrong with people?

Lots. I think it's rooted in both fear and control actually. We actually have a lot of difficulty having intelligent conversations because of all the noise around issues.

I think rape is a societal problem not just a women's issue. I think more date rapes occur than ski mask rapes. I think the conversation is skewed from too much alcohol in sexy skirts and high heels, and from the expectancy of picking up someone for sex in the clubs.

I don't think carrying a gun to kill a prospective rapist is the or any answer!!!!

1. As insensitive as it seems, if the one woman had had a gun there's a better than good chance she would be dead now.

2. As for the bitch in the opening post and her "all men are rapists" attitude. Go fuck yourself. If you want a discussion about rape and rape avoidance, get an attitude change first.

Chaos333 wrote:

In point #2, yes. I get really sick of these feminazis and their "all men are rapists" and "all men beat women" bullshit. How would you react if someone starting announcing that "women have to be trained not to be sluts" with it's implication that, without the training, all women are sluts?

Where did she say ALL men? Are you denying the fact that the vast majority of rapists ARE MALE?

(And good grief...."feminazis"? Really? That's f'd up, Jim. Very, very disappointing coming from you.)


No I don't deny that the majority of rapists are male. On the other hand, the vast majority of men are not rapists either. But that seems to have escaped Maxwell and her ilk's notice. Do you notice a lot of exclusions to her broadbased "men" accusations in these quotes.


If you want to know why we need to educate men not to be sexually aggressive...

I think we should be telling men not to rape women and start the conversation there.”

“If you train men not to grow up to become rapists, you prevent rape.”

I think you're drawing false conclusions, Jim.
How would you have had her phrase these statements?
She said nothing to imply she thinks all men are rapists.

Would you feel better if she had said...

If you want to know why we need to educate [SOME] men not to be sexually aggressive...

She's talking about prevention not prosecution. If she were, one may say "we need to imprison [all] men who commit rape. In terms of prevention, no one can predetermine who will commit rape, therefore she implies that all men need to be educated.

Add to that the fact that if a man rapes a woman and he get's no negative feedback from his friends, that adds to the problem and reinforces the idea that this is acceptable behavior.

Maybe it's just me, but, jim, I find your reaction to be disturbing. I see nothing in the op worthy of that response.

True story: two years ago, I was tutoring a small group of 6th graders, most of whom were 11 ~ they were all in varying stages of hormones kicking in ~ Malik was a big-for-his-age boy ~ Diamond was an early-and-generously-and-proudly developed girl ~ Malik kept try to hug and touch Diamond ~ Diamond repeatedly said "don't touch me" ~ the first week, I just tried to keep them apart, telling Malik he had to listen/hear/respect what Diamond was saying to him ~ the 2d week Malik refused to respect Diamond saying "don't touch me", we had a little chat as a group ~ there were 3 girls and 2 boys in the group ~ I told them that their bodies were changing, that it was natural, but that everyone has a right to say "don't touch me" ~ and that right MUST BE RESPECTED by others ~ Malik said he was just "playing with her" ~ Diamond said "but I don't want to play with you" ~ Malik announced his dad told him all girls say NO but they don't really mean it ~ I told Malik NO MEANS NO, ALWAYS ~ ~ that day, I turned the issue over to their teacher ~

I still strongly support what Maxwell said ~

Sooz

What do you say, Chaos. Have you signed your husband up for the "don't rape" training yet? Or isn't he included among "men". How about you, John. Have you registered or aren't you part of "men" either? Is there an exclusion somewhere in here or are we all required to sit through some course in how not to rape simply because we are all men and, therefore, in Maxwell's estimation all rapists and, therefore, should be subject to whatever indoctrination she dreams up.

If you want to know why we need to educate men not to be sexually aggressive...

I think we should be telling men not to rape women and start the conversation there.”

“If you train men not to grow up to become rapists, you prevent rape.”

I don't know what Sooz's example has to do with the subject at hand. Everyone, men and women, have to learn about personal boundaries. There was a far cry between what Malik was doing and rape. At that age, for every case of a boy trying to hug a girl there's a girl trying to hug boys. Does that make the girls potential rapists?

There have been a number of cases of women being involved in child abuse cases. Should we then approach the problem by assuming all women are child abusers at heart and therefore educate "women" not to be child abusers, tell "women" not to abuse children and start the conversation from there and train "women" not to abuse children.

So, Jim, how would YOU prevent rape or do you even think it's a problem?

Do you not think young people should learn about rape, what it is, etc? Would this not apply especially to the males since most rapes are committed by males? If so, would you not teach all males since you can not determine ahead of time who might become a rapist?

Are men not more sexually aggressive than women in general?

Men and women (boys and girls) need to learn about rape and child molestation, what is acceptable and what is not.

It doesn't matter what the woman is wearing, what she is doing, where she is, etc. If and when she says no, it means no. A person who is drugged or drunk beyond reason (passed out) can not give consent.

The time to teach is when they are young. Sooz's example was a good one. That little boy needs to learn the boundaries before he gets older and gets in real trouble and hurts someone. The "no, doesn't mean no" attitude is part of what's behind a lot of the date rapes and other rapes by people they know.

No one has said all men are rapists. No one thinks all men are rapists. The offense at what she said is just another way to dilute the real issue.

jim, this discussion has turned surreal ~ the point of my story is clearly that the girl was saying "don't touch me" and the boy was ignoring her and doing what he wanted ~ and that his father was coaching him to not accept NO ~ are you suggesting we should wait to teach kids that NO MEANS NO until after they've assaulted someone?

Sooz

I can't help but feel that there is some reason this story has angered/irritated you besides Maxwell's comments.

Here is what she says narrowed down to 5 points;

5 Ways We Can Teach Men Not to Rape
1. Teach young men about legal consent
2. Teach young men to see women’s humanity, instead of seeing them as sexual objects for male pleasure
3. Teach young men how to express healthy masculinity
4. Teach young men to believe women and girls who come forward
5. Teach males about bystander intervention

http://www.ebony.com/news-views/5-ways-we-can-teach-men-not-to-rape-456#ixzz2NF5tl8BZ

What in any of the above suggestions is so wrong?

I'm loath to post on this thread, just about certain to offend someone. Which surprises me a little bit.

I think there are at least two battles going on, both of them "Man vs. woman" . The first is between the man animal that's driven by instinct to spread his genes far and wide, by force if necessary, and the woman animal whose life is threatened and totally screwed up by him. That's been going on forever. I emphatically DO NOT mean to characterize anyone posting here by this.

Another dispute is between the man in civil society, minding his own business, and "the feminist movement", which, he believes, unfairly portrays him as being like the forcible-gene-spreading guy I mentioned above. This second battle is a new thing. There should be a thread about it.

The title of the OP, "Can men be taught not to rape", suggests that, absent civilizing intervention, men generally are inclined to rape people. It's posed as a question, and that implies doubt that men CAN be taught not to rape. Which portrays the guy in civil society, minding his own business, in a bad light. You should expect a little pushback from that, on a personal level.

But some guys are just hostile to "the feminist movement" on general principle, regardless of whether it's about rape or equality in the workplace, or women in combat, or women driving earthmovers, or whatever. You hear the term "feminazi" a lot in discussions about that.

Hannity kept saying "tell women......". The panelist got mad about that. "Most rapes are committed by men. Tell the men....., not the women." She was saying the emphasis should not be on telling women to carry weapons to protect themselves from rape, it should be on making men stop raping. That does not mean all men, it means the men who are raping. She is saying the point should be teaching young men so that women have less of a chance of being raped. She was saying most rapes are by people the victims know and trust so chances are a gun or whatever would not be right there.

The person who was most insulting to men was Hannity. He's the one saying men are gonna rape so women should arm themselves.

Rape will never be totally stopped. It can be decreased a lot with the right teaching when people are younger. I agree with the panelist. I also appreciate one point she made regarding women arming themselves to prevent rape. If that were true then there wouldn't be so much rape in the military.

Here's an idea! Instead of accusing men of being rapists why didn't she take the other approach and ask men to help curb rape. Contrary to what she - and it seems like most of the women on here - believes, most men are not rapists, we abhor the very concept and would defend any woman we saw being attacked. But, of course that view of men would not fit her "we are victim, men are bad" philosophy and, especially, wouldn't keep the dollars flowing into her feminista (her description, not mine) little organization.

You know there are a lot of men who do share the housework at home, who applaud the advancement of women in the workplace, who encourage women to get into the trades, who treat their wives/girlfriends and female acquaintences with respect,who don't feel threatened by the equality of women. We don't deserve the bull shit put downs spread by the feminist industry.

Jim, it appears to me you are denying that most rapes are committed by men. Did I just say all men are rapists? No, I didn't.

She should ask men to help curb rape? She did. She told Hannity that we should teach the boundaries to men when they are young instead of telling women to arm themselves.

I still can not see where you're getting your view of what she said. At no point did she say all men, all men are bad or any of that other crap. I'm not sure why you feel so threatened by her but, imo, it's as ridiculous as those assholes who posted to her. People make general statements, if it doesn't apply to you then it doesn't. Most rapes are committed by men. That's a fact. So, to start to solve the problem you talk to men. Doesn't that make sense?

The problem is rape culture.



Maxwell is right. Sooz, in her example of the kids, is right. People need to be taught not to rape. Your privilege is showing, Jim.

I had the privilege to be taught by my parents and to some extent by the environment I grew up in not to rape etc. etc.

Do I still need re-education?